How safe is a "safety"

[baguio]

A few points that are all just my opinion

Point 2: Muzzle up or muzzle down is irrelevant as long as you have good muzzle awareness at all times.

I carry muzzle up with a round in the chamber and the safety on. Always.

How is muzzle down or up irrelevant? Do you, at all times, know where your bullet is going to land when carrying muzzle up, should the rifle go off? You do when it's muzzle down though (approximately 2 foot in front or behind you and slightly outside of straight ahead from where you're facing!

 

[Ratel]

ND is not checking the mag and chamber clear before entering a car or climbing a fence / wall for example . Accidental is a mechanical fault, mis understanding if the safety went forwards or back to go on safe ( CZ forward to safe , Sako forward to fire). Honestly though the decision is made by others looking at events after the fact .
Some are grey areas though and that is why we have investigations and courts .
I have some knowledge of just two serious mistakes one on a range that lead to a persons life ending and another on the hill that quite amazingly did not just very serious life long injury . Never forget it not only can happen but does happen !
I have had two accidents in my teens , leading only to one minor injury to my thumb ( a faulty safety on a new gun ) I now check for function frequently . The other closing a hammer gun with the hammer back ( big hole in the ground ) , when someone closes a gun inappropriately near me they get told ! it was of course my error but the fact remains guns can loose sear engagement on closing - point the dangerous end at the ground while closing !

I know the actual difference my friend but as I said end result is the same. Too many trying to be a little pedantic.

 

[Namman]

I know the actual difference my friend but as I said end result is the same. Too many trying to be a little pedantic.

But what is your point ?

 

[Heym SR20]

That might be the consensus amongst the average person on here but it certainly isn't the case amongst people who shoot any amount of deer. However, that goes without saying if you're carry empty as you have no chance of a quick shot at a bumped animal that pauses for a split second.
As has been said before, it's no wonder that the deer population is so high.

You haven’t read my post.

I say

And only chamber a round when you think a shot is imminent

So if you are going through where it’s likely that you may bump a deer and that would give you a safe shot then chamber a round. But keep the rifle in hand. You are unlikely to be able to take a snap shot at a bumped deer with a rifle on your shoulder.

But equally how long does it really take to chamber a round. And how many bumped deer actually give a safe opportunity to take a quick shot with a rifle.

 

[Muntybuck5803]

How is muzzle down or up irrelevant? Do you, at all times, know where your bullet is going to land when carrying muzzle up, should the rifle go off? You do when it's muzzle down though (approximately 2 foot in front or behind you and slightly outside of straight ahead from where you're facing!

Should the rifle go off? You mean if it decides to gain a mind of its own and decide to go off? It’s irrelevant as with due care and attention it won’t go off.

So an object the size of a bullet falling and tumbling under terminal velocity will impact with a lot less energy than a bullet impacting something 2 feet away (a friend or dog) with full force.

Assuming you have no friends given your tone on this forum I would say it’s only your dog to be concerned with.

You have an issue with my opinion?

 

[Ratel]

But what is your point ?

Don't even know what you are on about, all I said was AD and ND can have the same results. Seems some folk want or need to drivel on.
Anyway just got in from the larder after a hard day, need my tea and can't be arsed with answering silly posts.

 

[Heym SR20]

Falling Bullets. If a rifle goes off pointing up in the air its bullet will eventually fall back to earth at terminal velocity. Mrs Heym SR20, lived in Central America fir a couple of years. She had a bullet come through the roof of her house - locals were celebrating a wedding in the village firing guns in the air.

A little googling and found this article

Cranial Gravitational (Falling) Bullet Injuries: Point of View

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In summary - and very much varies on bullet types, how they fall etc etc the article suggests about 150 to 200 fps velocity will allow a bullet to penetrate human skin and greater than 200 fps will allow a bullet to penetrate a scull.

Most bullets have the potential reach up to 600fps - more than enough for a double skull penetration.

The article reports several hundred serious injuries from falling bullets - many from celebratory firing into the air. Most of the injuries were to the head and thus pretty serious.

Makes you think about what could happen if your rifle went off on your shoulder. We are a crowded little island with plenty of people all over the place. A rifle bullet could easily come down a couple of miles away.

 

[landkeeper]

Of course then there’s the old school chamber a round while holding the trigger down…

That's my way ,simply cock the bolt when needed

 

[Namman]

Don't even know what you are on about, all I said was AD and ND can have the same results. Seems some folk want or need to drivel on.
Anyway just got in from the larder after a hard day, need my tea and can't be arsed with answering silly posts.

Why don't you re read your posts , they are mostly irrelevant and involve trying to pick holes in what others say.
End of discussion.

 

[baguio]

Should the rifle go off? You mean if it decides to gain a mind of its own and decide to go off? It’s irrelevant as with due care and attention it won’t go off.

So an object the size of a bullet falling and tumbling under terminal velocity will impact with a lot less energy than a bullet impacting something 2 feet away (a friend or dog) with full force.

Assuming you have no friends given your tone on this forum I would say it’s only your dog to be concerned with.

You have an issue with my opinion?

LMAO. Is this thread not about the rifle going off unexpectedly? No one (before you anyway) suggested that a rifle had a mind of its own) .
I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a bullet weighing 100grain plus dropping from the sky. Perhaps you would?
I don't know anyone who carries their rifle on the same side as their dog. That's why dogs of right handed gentlemen always walk on the left and visa versa! As for hitting a person, I know where my barrel is pointing and it's never at anyone because it's only inches from the floor and only just in front of me. It's impossible!
You're assumptions are very wrong. I stalk, associate and am friends with people who shoot lots of deer and know quite a bit. I doubt that you will know any of them for those reasons!
I couldn't give a fig about your opinion (see previous paragraph).

 

[fresh slots]

LMAO. Is this thread not about the rifle going off unexpectedly? No one (before you anyway) suggested that a rifle had a mind of its own) .
I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a bullet weighing 100grain plus dropping from the sky. Perhaps you would?
I don't know anyone who carries their rifle on the same side as their dog. That's why dogs of right handed gentlemen always walk on the left and visa versa! As for hitting a person, I know where my barrel is pointing and it's never at anyone because it's only inches from the floor and only just in front of me. It's impossible!
You're assumptions are very wrong. I stalk, associate and am friends with people who shoot lots of deer and know quite a bit. I doubt that you will know any of them for those reasons!
I couldn't give a fig about your opinion (see previous paragraph).

To throw into the mixer as a devils advocate: What of the ricochet risk from a bullet into the deck, a point worthy of discussion?

( out of interest do you have a good supply of figs?)

 

[baguio]

To throw into the mixer as a devils advocate: What of the ricochet risk from a bullet into the deck, a point worthy of discussion?

( out of interest do you have a good supply of figs?)

In rocky country the risk of ricochet is probably quite high, although likely going away from the stalker. Around my way it's negligible. A bullet would bury itself deep in the soft soil and clay.
It's been a good year for figs so yes, I have a good supply!

 

[Muntybuck5803]

LMAO. Is this thread not about the rifle going off unexpectedly? No one (before you anyway) suggested that a rifle had a mind of its own) .
I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by a bullet weighing 100grain plus dropping from the sky. Perhaps you would?
I don't know anyone who carries their rifle on the same side as their dog. That's why dogs of right handed gentlemen always walk on the left and visa versa! As for hitting a person, I know where my barrel is pointing and it's never at anyone because it's only inches from the floor and only just in front of me. It's impossible!
You're assumptions are very wrong. I stalk, associate and am friends with people who shoot lots of deer and know quite a bit. I doubt that you will know any of them for those reasons!
I couldn't give a fig about your opinion (see previous paragraph).

See previous paragraph?

So for clarity, you care so little for my opinion yet you have felt the need to justify to a stranger that you have lots of friends and all this knowledge?

Don’t be so sure we don’t know the same people

 

[baguio]

@Muntybuck5803 , my friends are not so ignorant as to put people's names on a public forum. Remove it!
Read my post. I never said that we didn't know the same people! Those people will also take a very dim view of you putting people's name on this forum!

 

[paul o']

Remington ?

 

[Heym SR20]

Tell me the difference, the results the same ND or AD.

Accidental - you, nor any other competent person could not have foreseen the adverse

Negligent - you clearly possessed, or bloody well should have, the knowledge that your actions could cause an adverse event.

So for example you load shotgun and as you close the gun it goes off - accidental or negligent.

Well it was the instructors gun which you had not used before, and you were closing it properly bringing the stock to the barrels with your trigger hand on the stock - Accidental

You are holding the gun by the pistol grip with your finger on the trigger and bringing the barrels up horizontally- Negligent - especially as the gun goes off horizontally.

But if you are a complete novice, then the negligence is on the part of the instructor who should have shown you the correct handling of the gun.

But lets suppose its your own gun. And you close it properly.

You have never had it serviced and you have never done a bang test - Negligent - its your responsibility to make sure your equipment is in good order.

Even worse - its done it before, but not for a while so thought no point in having it looked at.

And professionally negligent if the shooting instructor knew that it was a known problem with that gun but he was in a rush and couldn’t be bothered getting the other one.

 

[Apthorpe]

Accidental - you, nor any other competent person could not have foreseen the adverse

Negligent - you clearly possessed, or bloody well should have, the knowledge that your actions could cause an adverse event.

So for example you load shotgun and as you close the gun it goes off - accidental or negligent.

Well it was the instructors gun which you had not used before, and you were closing it properly bringing the stock to the barrels with your trigger hand on the stock - Accidental

You are holding the gun by the pistol grip with your finger on the trigger and bringing the barrels up horizontally- Negligent - especially as the gun goes off horizontally.

But if you are a complete novice, then the negligence is on the part of the instructor who should have shown you the correct handling of the gun.

But lets suppose its your own gun. And you close it properly.

You have never had it serviced and you have never done a bang test - Negligent - its your responsibility to make sure your equipment is in good order.

Even worse - its done it before, but not for a while so thought no point in having it looked at.

And professionally negligent if the shooting instructor knew that it was a known problem with that gun but he was in a rush and couldn’t be bothered getting the other one.

A touch of devil's advocate, but....any competent person knows that a gun can only go off when it is loaded. Therefore any competent person knows that loading a gun creates a risk that it may unexpectedly discharge, whether owing to some hitherto undetected fault or to a fault that developed a moment earlier. Accidental or negligent?

It seems to me there is quite a large grey area between the extremes.

You only have to look at the debate between people thinking it's safer to carry the muzzle up or down. In no case do they appear to have made an effort to quantify the risks. Yes, we all know a falling bullet is capable of causing serious injury or death, but that ignores the extremely low probability of it hitting someone, even in England. On the other side, muzzle-down is better because the bullet should hit the ground, while ignoring the significant probability that it does not owing to a fall, or to a ricochet. In both cases, people are failing to properly account for the major risk factor. Is that negligent?

 

[Alantoo]

On the other side, muzzle-down is better because the bullet should hit the ground, while ignoring the significant probability that it does not owing to a fall, or to a ricochet. In both cases, people are failing to properly account for the major risk factor. Is that negligent?

I do not think anyone ignores the hazard of the rifle discharging during a fall. Leastwise the empty chamber advocates.

The major risk factor between muzzle up and muzzle down carry combined with a fall, is that with the muzzle down it at least starts in a relatively safe direction and will remain so until the last minute when it becomes horizontal.

With muzzle up and a fall, the muzzle can cartwheel 180 degrees in a dangerous direction before arriving at horizontal along the ground.

 

[SamHuntVic]

I don't trust safety catches and I don't trust people.
Returning to my vehicle there is first, the verbal instruction. and then on entering, the written warning.
Anyone hunting with me knows what to expect no matter their their experience or familiarity.
Grant.

 

[Mungo]

A touch of devil's advocate, but....any competent person knows that a gun can only go off when it is loaded. Therefore any competent person knows that loading a gun creates a risk that it may unexpectedly discharge, whether owing to some hitherto undetected fault or to a fault that developed a moment earlier. Accidental or negligent?

It seems to me there is quite a large grey area between the extremes.

You only have to look at the debate between people thinking it's safer to carry the muzzle up or down. In no case do they appear to have made an effort to quantify the risks. Yes, we all know a falling bullet is capable of causing serious injury or death, but that ignores the extremely low probability of it hitting someone, even in England. On the other side, muzzle-down is better because the bullet should hit the ground, while ignoring the significant probability that it does not owing to a fall, or to a ricochet. In both cases, people are failing to properly account for the major risk factor. Is that negligent?

I’ve seen one muzzle down ND and several muzzle up NDs.

The muzzle down was far, far more terrifying, and came extremely close to blowing someone’s foot off.

More broadly, I don’t think it’s helpful or meaningful to try to draw a distinction between ND and AD. It’s clearly a spectrum, and the main point is that the risk of these things going bang when you don’t expect them to is real, the consequences are potentially serious, there are ways to lower the risk of the bang happening, none of which are foolproof, and there are simple procedures for minimising the consequences.