How would you handle it?

[2130martin]

Almost. It's illegal to discharge a gun within 50ft of the center of a highway .....

If he wasn't discharging at the time, no offence. Though, had it had a malfunction things may have been a very different issue.


Can anybody provide a link to the specific law relating to an unslipped gun in public ? And I'm not meaning the HO guidelines, it's not there[/QUOTE]

You are right,I always understood that any firearm in public should be covered/concealed....it seems thats not the case if you have good reason........

 

[tumbleweed]

Quite correct The tramp, first thing right away is Safety particularly yours, i would not have moved forward, I would have firm words in his ear like, then a report to the shoot captain (if one has been appointed) If you had done the same i am sure you would have been having words. If there is nothing done about it then and there i would state that the police would have to become involved and that his whole business would be under discussion with the fld due to unsafe practices being carried out by the members, their insurance would be null and void, I dare say the softly softly approach usually works but if not nobodys life is worth a feckin idiot making a mistake that could be avoided

Yes, it is.

The "....." Was because I couldn't be bothered to add the rest of the "if in doing so" etc etc.


taken from basc.


SHOOTING NEAR HIGHWAYS (E.G. ROADS & CARRIAGEWAYS)
In England & Wales it is an offence without lawful authority or reasonable excuse to discharge any firearm within fifty feet of the centre of a highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway, and in consequence a user of the carriageway is injured, interrupted or endangered. [Section 161(2) of the Highways Act 1980 as amended].

It is important to remember that the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited in itself. It must also be proved that there was an injury, or that someone’s passage was interrupted or interfered with e.g. they have been forced to make a detour.
For the purposes of Section 161 (2) of the Highways Act 1980 (as amended), a ‘highway’ is restricted to a public right of way for the passage of vehicles and does not include footpaths, cycle tracks or bridleways. Therefore the fifty feet rule described above does not apply to rights of ways that cross private lands e.g. footpaths.
Whilst the Firearms Act does not provide a statutory definition of what is meant by “lawful authority” or “reasonable excuse”. We believe that “lawful authority” would not necessarily apply to sportsmen as this seems to relate to those issued with firearms in connection with official duties such as police or military personnel. “Reasonable excuse” would apply to sportsmen shooting over land with permission. Section 19 of the Firearms Act with regard to having a ‘firearm in a public place’ also applies and is described on page 4. This legislation applies to all public places and not just open access land.

So, I think you will find, that it IS an offence to DISCHARGE within 50ft, blah blah blah

 

[The tramp]

Almost. It's illegal to discharge a gun within 50ft of the center of a highway .....

If he wasn't discharging at the time, no offence. Though, had it had a malfunction things may have been a very different issue.


Can anybody provide a link to the specific law relating to an unslipped gun in public ? And I'm not meaning the HO guidelines, it's not there[/QUOTE]

You are right,I always understood that any firearm in public should be covered/concealed....it seems thats not the case if you have good reason........

Airguns must be in a secure cover, and unloaded, shotguns should not be loaded, sec1, surprisingly, doesn't differentiate between loaded or not, but, although there is no law against it per say, if you were to stroll down the high street with an unloaded shotgun, or a rifle (with no ammo suitable), although it isn't breaking any firearm acts, (on ticket, legal authority, not loaded/no ammo, no reasonable excuse needed) you could be arrested and charged with an 'offensive weapon' (if somebody takes offence) or even breach of the peace (if you scare somebody)

But, nipping 50yds down a road between farms is fine.

Yes, the law is 'odd' but, that's what we have to deal with

 

[The tramp]

Quite correct The tramp, first thing right away is Safety particularly yours, i would not have moved forward, I would have firm words in his ear like, then a report to the shoot captain (if one has been appointed) If you had done the same i am sure you would have been having words. If there is nothing done about it then and there i would state that the police would have to become involved and that his whole business would be under discussion with the fld due to unsafe practices being carried out by the members, their insurance would be null and void, I dare say the softly softly approach usually works but if not nobodys life is worth a feckin idiot making a mistake that could be avoided

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree, I'm not sticking up for the gun in this case, I'm just correcting false information.

 

[Markfox]

If you consider that someone isn't being being safe or doing things safely you should bring it to there attention leaving it could harm you or a fellow shooter

if they are a respectfull person they will accept that you've noticed there unsafe act and change there way on the other hand if they give u abuse report them to the shoot and give a wide birth

 

[VSS]

My view of your description is, that as you rounded that bend and came to the gun, is it not unreasonable to assume that he was acting on his own and no one knew he was positioned in the road.I would ask the keeper where the peg location is,and or was that gun told to stand where he was?
I would think they will be horrified when you tell them and realise the difficulty they could have found themselves in if it had been a police patrol or an anti who was travelling along as you were.

They always place a gun at that point when doing that particular drive, so no, he wasn't acting on his own initiative, and he was within view of other members of the party.
Most guns keep their muzzles at the sky whenever a car comes past. This one chose to keep his gun horizontal, pointing across the road. The weird thing was that he really didn't seem to be able to understand why I was unhappy about driving past, despite the fact I'd have had the barrels of his gun pointing straight at the side of my head at a range of about a yard!

 

[The tramp]

To add

 

[countrryboy]

I think i would have had a word with the gun myself at the time, it is all very well telling shoot captains later on, but if something is dangerous (low shots, swinging throu the line etc) i would rather anyone who see's it says there and then, u dinae get many 2nd chances, depending how offender deals with it shoot is either stopped till sorted or carries on and i have a word later on, thankfully never had many issues. Tiuch wood, long may it continue
But i tell all the guns in the morning if u see anything speak up there and then, u are all responsible for each others safety, a shoot captain can only be in 1 place at a time.

I think u would be best to have a word with the captain possibly as well as the keeper, mentioing his safety/attitude
I know of a few shoots that stand guns on public roads, i know 1 well that a few years ago a gun ran out of shells and he had a slab with him all fired from a public road (albeit very quiet) so strictly speaking not really any legal problems if the gun behaves in a reasonbly and safe manner, which i this case doesnae seem'd to be the case from if he caused fear/alarm etc


Tramp i have asked basc a similar question (for scotland) and i have been informed twice now, years apart that legally speaking i don't even have to unload (ignoring the safety aspect) or have it overloaded on my back and is perfectly legal, to drive on the road on my bike, as was said earlier for a S1 it makes no difference where the ammo is legally in ur pocket in in rifle as long as in ur possesion ll the same legally.

 

[Akeld]

Have a word with the keeper and the shoot captain, obviously their pre-shoot safety briefs are being ignored or not been done

 

[VSS]

I think i would have had a word with the gun myself at the time, it is all very well telling shoot captains later on, but if something is dangerous (low shots, swinging throu the line etc) i would rather anyone who see's it says there and then, u dinae get many 2nd chances, depending how offender deals with it shoot is either stopped till sorted or carries on and i have a word later on, thankfully never had many issues. Tiuch wood, long may it continue
But i tell all the guns in the morning if u see anything speak up there and then, u are all responsible for each others safety, a shoot captain can only be in 1 place at a time.

I think u would be best to have a word with the captain possibly as well as the keeper, mentioing his safety/attitude
I know of a few shoots that stand guns on public roads, i know 1 well that a few years ago a gun ran out of shells and he had a slab with him all fired from a public road (albeit very quiet) so strictly speaking not really any legal problems if the gun behaves in a reasonbly and safe manner, which i this case doesnae seem'd to be the case from if he caused fear/alarm etc


Tramp i have asked basc a similar question (for scotland) and i have been informed twice now, years apart that legally speaking i don't even have to unload (ignoring the safety aspect) or have it overloaded on my back and is perfectly legal, to drive on the road on my bike, as was said earlier for a S1 it makes no difference where the ammo is legally in ur pocket in in rifle as long as in ur possesion ll the same legally.

You talk sense Countryboy.
I did try speaking to the guy with the gun, but he clearly wasn't prepared to communicate with a low-life like me! Just looked down his nose and kept waving me on, impatiently. Seemed completely non-plussed that I wouldn't drive past. I asked him to either raise the muzzles skywards or break the gun,which drew no response from him at all. In the end he turned slightly so the gun was pointing along, rather than across, the road, and made even more impatient gestures. I then faced two options - lose my rag or make the best of it and drive on. I decided against making a scene, because, as I mentioned before, my kids go beating at the weekends and I don't want them getting stick on account of their dad having interupted a drive.

I'll try to have a word with the shoot owner when i drop the kids off on Saturday (although he's been avoiding me since the episode of the beaters / pickers up coming over the boundary), and failing that I'll talk to the keeper.

 

[palmer_mike]

For what it's worth (which isn't a lot) and of course things are always easier in hindsight but maybe if it occurs again, you might consider getting out and having a word with the gun. It might be difficult to do, but if you can explain calmly what he is doing wrong hopefully he would take it on board? Also, if he react aggressively I'd not hesitate to call the fld and report the fact that you felt threatened by his behaviour....

 

[Essex stalker]

It also shows how important a safety briefing is at the start of shoot, no excuse then.

Personally I would have a quiet word with the shoot captain, think how you would feel if you hear in a couple of weeks that there has been an accident. You would always regret not saying anything

 

[timbrayford]

They always place a gun at that point when doing that particular drive, so no, he wasn't acting on his own initiative, and he was within view of other members of the party.
Most guns keep their muzzles at the sky whenever a car comes past. This one chose to keep his gun horizontal, pointing across the road. The weird thing was that he really didn't seem to be able to understand why I was unhappy about driving past, despite the fact I'd have had the barrels of his gun pointing straight at the side of my head at a range of about a yard!

I believe that the correct response is to tell the gun that you can see that he uses No.6 shot. This is an old fashioned expression going back to the days of the rolled turn over cartridge with the shot size printed on a card at the shotload end. i.e you can see up his barrels.

I have seen this work on numerous occasions.

atb Tim

 

[2130martin]

I believe that the correct response is to tell the gun that you can see that he uses No.6 shot. This is an old fashioned expression going back to the days of the rolled turn over cartridge with the shot size printed on a card at the shotload end. i.e you can see up his barrels.

I have seen this work on numerous occasions.

atb Tim

Good thought but,somehow doubt this gun would know what that means,theres a lot of folk that go shooting nowadays that havent a clue!!!........but its the thing to do!!!........sounds like he is one of them.....

 

[blaven]

You talk sense Countryboy.
I did try speaking to the guy with the gun, but he clearly wasn't prepared to communicate with a low-life like me! Just looked down his nose and kept waving me on, impatiently. Seemed completely non-plussed that I wouldn't drive past. I asked him to either raise the muzzles skywards or break the gun,which drew no response from him at all. In the end he turned slightly so the gun was pointing along, rather than across, the road, and made even more impatient gestures. I then faced two options - lose my rag or make the best of it and drive on. I decided against making a scene, because, as I mentioned before, my kids go beating at the weekends and I don't want them getting stick on account of their dad having interupted a drive.

I'll try to have a word with the shoot owner when i drop the kids off on Saturday (although he's been avoiding me since the episode of the beaters / pickers up coming over the boundary), and failing that I'll talk to the keeper.

Its a tough call, this one. On the one hand you were apprehensive about your personal safety, and needed to educate the 'gunman' about the error of his ways. He's obviously ill-bred and in no mood to be corrected. You definitely need to inform someone who has the authority in the shoot to prevent this sort of thing happening again.
On the other hand it seems you do not enjoy the best of terms with the shoot owner. Only you can know who best to approach in this matter.
It must also have struck you that laxity in gun safety in this shoot might affect your children's participation in future with possible very tragic consequences?

 

[csl]

"Excuse me, would you mind breaking your gun so I can drive past safely? Thank you." ??

If the gun refused or was rude in return then a complaint to the shoot captain along the lines of "you were lucky it was me and I'm a shooter, if it had been an anti it could be in all the newspapers by now". Keep it civil, as you say, you are somewhat stuck with them.

Alex

 

[Eric the Red]

Yes, it is.

The "....." Was because I couldn't be bothered to add the rest of the "if in doing so" etc etc.


taken from basc.


SHOOTING NEAR HIGHWAYS (E.G. ROADS & CARRIAGEWAYS)
In England & Wales it is an offence without lawful authority or reasonable excuse to discharge any firearm within fifty feet of the centre of a highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway, and in consequence a user of the carriageway is injured, interrupted or endangered. [Section 161(2) of the Highways Act 1980 as amended].

It is important to remember that the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited in itself. It must also be proved that there was an injury, or that someone’s passage was interrupted or interfered with e.g. they have been forced to make a detour.
For the purposes of Section 161 (2) of the Highways Act 1980 (as amended), a ‘highway’ is restricted to a public right of way for the passage of vehicles and does not include footpaths, cycle tracks or bridleways. Therefore the fifty feet rule described above does not apply to rights of ways that cross private lands e.g. footpaths.
Whilst the Firearms Act does not provide a statutory definition of what is meant by “lawful authority” or “reasonable excuse”. We believe that “lawful authority” would not necessarily apply to sportsmen as this seems to relate to those issued with firearms in connection with official duties such as police or military personnel. “Reasonable excuse” would apply to sportsmen shooting over land with permission. Section 19 of the Firearms Act with regard to having a ‘firearm in a public place’ also applies and is described on page 4. This legislation applies to all public places and not just open access land.

So, I think you will find, that it IS an offence to DISCHARGE within 50ft, blah blah blah

....IF it can be seen (proven) to be causing interruption. But I'm agreeing with you.

The bottom line is - he did interrupt you, albeit by his intent, and is in breach of the (presumably) loaded weapon in a public place thing. The fact that he was not more careful/too arrogant to be safe is a big warning sign for me. The gun should have been broken to show safety AFAIAC and that is what I would have done (easy in hindsight!) in his shoes, to maintain readiness for when it was safe.

I would say this - as a landowner and responsible shooter it is your duty to inform the shoot captain of what you have seen. The reality is, Mr SC, is that it is in breach of a number of things - (but we all know the pragmatic bit blah blah) - but it is about perception. The ramifications are significant - what of it was someone else, less aware - what if someone made a formal complaint (the shoot would receive a world of pain) - what if he had discharged his weapon (intentionally or otherwise) over/round/through a vehicle? It doesn't bear thinking about and your silence in keeping them sweet would be no salve should something awful happen.

Further, we are sometimes guilty of assuming that people know what we know. It's hard when the other side of that coin is teaching Gran to suck eggs. I would suggest you need reassurance from the SC the issue is acknowledged (it DID happen) and there are actions in place to deal with it. For the shoot right now, I suggest it's a good job it was you that experienced this and not a MoGP. For all you know the SC already has concerns about an individual and is needing the example to talk to them.

It doesn't need to be a heavy conversation, but it absolutely does need to be said. I'm sorry if this comes across as a bit vehement, but as some one who is extremely lucky to have got away with being in the firing line of an ND, the negligence of the chap you describe really wrankles.

There is a shoot near me that has a not dissimilar drive. The shoot captain gives very clear and specific instructions immediately prior to the drive with regard to safety in that situation. Doesn't make it right, but it does put safety at the forefront of the minds for those putting themselves in a potentially difficult situation.

 

[timbrayford]

Good thought but,somehow doubt this gun would know what that means,theres a lot of folk that go shooting nowadays that havent a clue!!!........but its the thing to do!!!........sounds like he is one of them.....

Sadly too true, there are a minority of shooters that are a danger to themselves and others, perhaps the training issue deserves revisiting. Hopefully in this instance the shoot captain was made aware and had a discreet word.

atb Tim

 

[RED-DOT]

So is this why shooting is the second safest sport in the UK second only to tiddlywinks?

 

[VSS]

So is this why shooting is the second safest sport in the UK second only to tiddlywinks?

You're right, R-D, it is a safe sport, for a number of reasons - not least because it tends to take place in sparsely populated areas, and also because most of us have had safety drummed into us from a very young age. However, there's no denying that there's the potential for things to go badly wrong, with tragic results, due to a few people taking chances and cutting corners where safety is concerned.
Going shooting is certainly less risky than driving a car, but it won't stay that way if folk behave like the chap I saw yesterday.