HSE Lead restriction extension

[homer]

There is a very strong correlation between those nasty agressive cancers such as acute myeloid leukaemia and small cell lung cancer and raised levels of lead in the blood.

Lead in food, especially lead shot game can be a major source of lead in the body. There are a number studies showing elevated levels lead in the blood amongst those who eat a lot of lead shot meat. Mostly these studies are on native Americans.

Micro plastics are also a worry and need to be tackled - but that is a separate and completely different argument.

If we go back, say 2 generations, to when my grandparents were growing up. They had tough times. Hunting "for the pot" was necessary just to survive. They ate game/rabbits/pigeons probably 5 times a week, and continued to do so right up till they died late in their eightys. Even the venison was shot with the shotgun back then. No cancers, strokes, leukaemia, just old age.
Your average joe nowadays probably eats game maybe 3 -4 times a year, so does anyone have any numbers of deaths by cancer/leukaemia from 1940s - 1980s when people ate a lot more game?
Personal, I'd be alot more concerned about other chemicals, substances that go into mass production of food stuffs. Then theres water quality, air quality, micro plastics etc, the list goes on.
Give me a lead shot pheasant any day. You don't even eat the lead, you spit it out!

 

[Buchan]

If we go back, say 2 generations, to when my grandparents were growing up. They had tough times. Hunting "for the pot" was necessary just to survive. They ate game/rabbits/pigeons probably 5 times a week, and continued to do so right up till they died late in their eightys. Even the venison was shot with the shotgun back then. No cancers, strokes, leukaemia, just old age.
Your average joe nowadays probably eats game maybe 3 -4 times a year, so does anyone have any numbers of deaths by cancer/leukaemia from 1940s - 1980s when people ate a lot more game?
Personal, I'd be alot more concerned about other chemicals, substances that go into mass production of food stuffs. Then theres water quality, air quality, micro plastics etc, the list goes on.
Give me a lead shot pheasant any day. You don't even eat the lead, you spit it out!

Plenty of cancers and other diseases. But they died from it, usually went undiagnosed. Your relatives were lucky (and were probably part of the WW2 generation that were on. better diet than most today)


Yes, huge concern about the pollution that occurs and has gone unchecked for too long. Shooting pollutes the environment with lead. I'd absolutely agree lead ammunition is an easy target and potential less damaging than the fluorinated forever chemicals making up gortex or the PCB damaging fish. But it can and should be replaced

 

[Heym SR20]

If we go back, say 2 generations, to when my grandparents were growing up. They had tough times. Hunting "for the pot" was necessary just to survive. They ate game/rabbits/pigeons probably 5 times a week, and continued to do so right up till they died late in their eightys. Even the venison was shot with the shotgun back then. No cancers, strokes, leukaemia, just old age.
Your average joe nowadays probably eats game maybe 3 -4 times a year, so does anyone have any numbers of deaths by cancer/leukaemia from 1940s - 1980s when people ate a lot more game?
Personal, I'd be alot more concerned about other chemicals, substances that go into mass production of food stuffs. Then theres water quality, air quality, micro plastics etc, the list goes on.
Give me a lead shot pheasant any day. You don't even eat the lead, you spit it out!

I think you will find that there were plenty of cancers, leukaemia’s, strokes etc but nobody talked about them. I lost two of my grandparents to cancer during the 1960’s.

In those days cancer was a terminal illness, diagnosis was usually when it was well advanced and many doctors probably chose not to inform the patient as there was little point because they couldn’t do anything. Most people would die of infectious disease such as pneumonia or consumption. Indeed most with cancer are taken over the edge by infection of one sort or another. And most died in their 60’s.

There was plenty of concern in the military during even WW1 of effect on health that exposure to lead and other toxins would have on munitions workers and soldiers. The view was taken that military aims were important. Probably helps explain why Spanish flu pandemic in the 1920’s took out huge numbers of those who had gone through the war especially amongst factory workers.

Likewise tobacco. It was well understood of the effects of tobacco on health. But the British and Americans took the view that the moral boosting effects of cigarettes in ration packs outweighed the negative long term effects of tobacco smoking.

And it was only well after WW2 that it become compulsory for all milk to be pasteurised before being consumed. Unpasteurised milk was a major contributor to TB, yet millions of children had a daily ration of unpasteurised milk both before and during the war.

Yes there is a lot still to do with lots of nasty chemicals and materials that we now use. Plastics in particular.

But removing lead from food stuffs is a simple and easy change to make, and in the vast majority of guns and rifles the vast majority of shooters will notice little difference. Besides, we are meant to conservers of the countryside!

 

[Liveonce]

But removing lead from food stuffs is a simple and easy change to make,

However you are not removing it from all food stuffs are you just game, google lead in food, lots of everyday foods contain lead. Best avoid Beer and wine.

Lead in alcoholic beverages - PubMed

Following the finding that blood lead concentrations in middle-aged men were positively associated with alcohol consumption, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution recommended that information on lead in alcoholic beverages be obtained. The results reported here were obtained in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Heym SR20]

However you are not removing it from all food stuffs are you just game, google lead in food, lots of everyday foods contain lead. Best avoid Beer and wine.

Lead in alcoholic beverages - PubMed

Following the finding that blood lead concentrations in middle-aged men were positively associated with alcohol consumption, the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution recommended that information on lead in alcoholic beverages be obtained. The results reported here were obtained in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So where do you think that lead in foodstuff comes from? The only way lead and other metals can get into a plant is via its roots through dissolved metals from the soil.

And a lot of that lead will come from lead deposited on fields by shooters. It is then slowly dissolved and taken up along with other nutrients by growing crops. It will be particularly concentrated into seeds and hence into beer from malted barley.

Do a simple calc of how many kg of lead is in a field from a typical phaesant shoot.

There is an argument that lead is naturally occurring- it is but in the UK it is mostly on the mountainous areas in granite type rocks which are only used for grazing. Most cereals and foodstuffs are grown on the flat eastern side which has naturally low levels of lead in the soil.

 

[Spear Chucker]

So where do you think that lead in foodstuff comes from? The only way lead and other metals can get into a plant is via its roots through dissolved metals from the soil.

And a lot of that lead will come from lead deposited on fields by shooters. It is then slowly dissolved and taken up along with other nutrients by growing crops. It will be particularly concentrated into seeds and hence into beer from malted barley.

Do a simple calc of how many kg of lead is in a field from a typical phaesant shoot.

There is an argument that lead is naturally occurring- it is but in the UK it is mostly on the mountainous areas in granite type rocks which are only used for grazing. Most cereals and foodstuffs are grown on the flat eastern side which has naturally low levels of lead in the soil.

"And a lot of that lead will come from lead deposited on fields by shooters". Utter rot. Lead shot does not break down...that is why we still find shot on battlefields in roughly the same state as when it was fired 200yrs ago. Dissolved lead is a completely different thing. With rubbish like this coming from the shooting community, we deserve to fed to the antis.

 

[Liveonce]

However it’s a little more complicated than saying ban lead in the u.k. and the problem goes away as lots of food is imported, so can hardly blame uk shooters for that source of lead in their food.

Historically a lot of lead was deposited due to lead in fuel, especially from highways near farmlands, where extreme concentrations may be present

 

[Nickb]

You can argue til the cows home , it's purely political.

 

[Spear Chucker]

You can argue til the cows home , it's purely political.

Precisely right. All of this pseudo scientific horse manure is actually just irrelevant fluff and being used by BASC et al to disguise the fact they have done a deal with the Devil on our behalf. It makes me want to puke.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I will admit that the results of the reports you have found are compelling in terms of results gained from artificially conducted tests in respect of lead poisoning. If you chain me to a wall and poke biscuits down my throat, there is a reasonable chance that I will begin to suffer ill effects. In a natural scenario, that is not likely to happen in spite of the abundance of biscuits in my natural habitat. Ducks are no fools and like me, while they may well swallow the odd one, but their diet is not completely comprised of lead shot.

Thanks, so it looks like we are agreed that a primary exposure pathway exists biologically - ie. if a mallard eats lead shot, whether involuntarily being forced to eat lead shot in an experiment, or voluntarily eating lead shot in the wild when mistaking the lead shot as grit - the lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

"And a lot of that lead will come from lead deposited on fields by shooters". Utter rot. Lead shot does not break down...that is why we still find shot on battlefields in roughly the same state as when it was fired 200yrs ago. Dissolved lead is a completely different thing. With rubbish like this coming from the shooting community, we deserve to fed to the antis.

It is not ffing utter rot. Of course it fffing does, but it does so slowly.

lead musket balls are a lot larger than lead shot. And if they are dug up on battlefields you will see the surfaces are corroded. Lead corrosion forms a protective barrier.

Many battle fields will not be ploughed and cultivated regularly.

Shotgun pellets will be fired over cultivated land. They are also a lot lot smaller that lead musket balls. When cultivating soil every thing is mixed up with abrasive particles from the soil. Any lead shot will have its surface removed creating lots of lead particles.

We then dump lots of nitrates, nitrites, phosphates and potassium on the soil. With a bit of moisture these will react with the lead particles creating lead salts which are then available to plants to carried into plant materials.

It is pretty basic chemistry.

 

[Smellydog]

Proverbs 26:11

Verse 12 is good also....

 

[Spear Chucker]

Verse 12 is good also....

It is all good!

 

[Liveonce]

We then dump lots of nitrates, nitrites, phosphates and potassium on the soil. With a bit of moisture these will react with the lead particles creating lead salts which are then available to plants to carried into plant materials.

It is pretty basic chemistry.

Do you actually have any scientific data to back that claim? as a lead is a very stable element.

I know lead ballast and copper recovered from very old sunken ships is quite valuable to science if it pre dates nuclear testing, so obviously sea water does not degrade lead.

quick google.

Lead can be attacked by pure water and weak organic acids in the presence of oxygen. It is resistant to tap water, hydrofluoric acid, brine and solvents. Lead reacts with hot nitric acid, boiling sulfuric or hydrochloric acids

 

[Heym SR20]

Do you actually have any scientific data to back that claim? as a lead is a very stable element.

I know lead ballast and copper recovered from very old sunken ships is quite valuable to science if it pre dates nuclear testing, so obviously sea water does not degrade lead.

quick google.

Lead can be attacked by pure water and weak organic acids in the presence of oxygen. It is resistant to tap water, hydrofluoric acid, brine and solvents. Lead reacts with hot nitric acid, boiling sulfuric or hydrochloric acids

Soil contains lots of weak organic acids. I have a degree in agriculture which includes a lot of soil science.

If you google lead shot and soil you will find lots of articles. So for example came up first for me

https://bsssjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-2743.1994.tb00472.x

If you consider that on a lot of phaesant shoots, the same drives occur year after year, with guns standing in the same place, and on big shoots several thousand cartridges are fired in the course of a season. And shoots have been going on for decades. All that lead has ended up in the soil and will make its way into crops.

 

[Smellydog]

I wouldn't worry to much....when someone whispers in the ear of government something about jobs and the use of this crucial element in industry and science, energy production and military uses its all going toblow over.
It'll just end up being a massive tax money waste to keep empty suits in offices.

 

[Smellydog]

Im more worried about pesticides and herbicides really...

Nearly 900,000 Tea Bags Have Been Recalled Due to High Levels of Pesticides

Nearly 900,000 bags of Organic Yogi Echinacea Immune Support tea have been recalled due to high levels of pesticides.

www.marthastewart.com

 

[Spear Chucker]

I wouldn't worry to much....when someone whispers in the ear of government something about jobs and the use of this crucial element in industry and science, energy production and military uses its all going toblow over.
It'll just end up being a massive tax money waste to keep empty suits in offices.

I hope you are right. So far the loons seem to be making the pace.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Im more worried about pesticides and herbicides really...

Nearly 900,000 Tea Bags Have Been Recalled Due to High Levels of Pesticides

Nearly 900,000 bags of Organic Yogi Echinacea Immune Support tea have been recalled due to high levels of pesticides.

www.marthastewart.com

Saw dog bedding being made out of recycled tea bags...I asked why they weren't composted. I was told they have a large plastic content so they do not compost well! Never occurred to me.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Verse 12 is good also....

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo -lead only please!