Insurance! Which organisations don't cover you if this happens?

[andyk]

@timbrayford what point are you making?

You’re talking about the statutory appeals process, which says an appeal will be ‘assessed on its merits’, meaning the Judge hearing the appeal can make their own decision based on the evidence and the relevant statutory test for the license(s) revoked.

Here, it appears that the Judge must have concluded the gent in question met the statutory test, or put differently, the Police grounds for determining he couldn’t have a license without posing a risk to the public were insufficient.

That doesn’t have to mean the Judge concluded he’d done nothing wrong - only that what he did do didn’t justify considering he was a risk to the public.

 

[Heym SR20]

The Fieldsports Channel openly promotes its membership which for £90 includes legal cover for all firearms related stuff including costs if you have you guns seized etc.

Fieldsports Membership

Sign up today to Fieldsports membership with shooting insurance and legal expenses cover and get instant access to £10 million public liability.

www.fieldsportschannel.tv

When you receive your Shotgun or Firearms Certificate you have to sign it, and by signing it you agree to abide by the terms of certificates.

One of the (I think standard) conditions, is that the holder of the certificate must take reasonable precautions to prevent unauthorised access to the guns.

By leaving a shotgun in car parked in a supermarket car market where it was clearly visible to a member of the public with a casual view strikes me as somewhat careless, and really cannot see how the police would have acted otherwise to a breach of the conditions of a certificate.

The Home Office publishes guidelines on best practice for securely of firearms both at place of storage and whilst they are in use. Most of us do have to travel for shooting. It’s inevitable that you will need to stop at some point in the journey. Most cars are really quite secure, especially if don’t put temptation in the way of the opportunistic toerag. It doesn’t take much thought to put your shooting kit in the boot and cover it, and leave anything valuable or shooting related in plain sight.

As for alcohol - most police spend a lot of time at certain stages of their careers dealing with drunks and after effects of drunken behaviour, and in particular on domestic violence. I can totally understand why police are very wary of granting certificates to those who have a history or alcohol and other substance abuse - too often they have seen the end result and have had to deal with the aftermath.

 

[purdeydog]

What’s the issue? Guy sounds like a clown for leaving a gun on display. Quite right he was investigated. Field sports channel is very anti police and a lot of there videos are factually misleading I find.

 

[sanibel686]

In comment 57 I asked an open question to the shooting organisations: why don't you already offer legal expenses cover to your members on the front page of your website?

Surprisingly' Conor O'Gorman, Head of Policy at basc PM'd me to say he would be happy to help answer any questions and he sent me a link to an article on the Basc Fighting Fund. I responded saying i found it wishy washy and It provided no comfort to me that should I be in need of help any would be forthcoming from basc.

I explained that I would like to present Basc feedback to SD Members on these two questions

1, is Basc looking to introduce legal aid cover, and will it be at a discount, as other organisations appear to be doing.
2, if this gamekeeper had been a member of basc would Basc have taken it up on his behalf

Conor promised to forward my questions for review and get back to me and then......... asked me for my basc membership number.

When I responded that I was not a basc member, he wrote stating Basc advice was strictly for members and he was now not prepared to pass on my request for advice. Remember for a moment, it was HE who first contacted ME offering his advice!!!

This went back and forth, me saying I wasn't asking for advice, I wanted questions answered, him stating he was refusing to field them inside the organisation. I offered him 24 hours to advise me that he would field the questions and a further time to provide considered answers. He refused within a matter of moments.

My personal take on all of this? Seems to me Basc would have left our gamekeeper friend hanging. Also whilst I accept that the Basque Fighting Fund has produced some good results I have a feeling they heavily cherry pick who they will support and the rest of us are on our own.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

In comment 57 I asked an open question to the shooting organisations: why don't you already offer legal expenses cover to your members on the front page of your website?

Surprisingly' Conor O'Gorman, Head of Policy at basc PM'd me to say he would be happy to help answer any questions and he sent me a link to an article on the Basc Fighting Fund. I responded saying i found it wishy washy and It provided no comfort to me that should I be in need of help any would be forthcoming from basc.

I explained that I would like to present Basc feedback to SD Members on these two questions

1, is Basc looking to introduce legal aid cover, and will it be at a discount, as other organisations appear to be doing.
2, if this gamekeeper had been a member of basc would Basc have taken it up on his behalf

Conor promised to forward my questions for review and get back to me and then......... asked me for my basc membership number.

When I responded that I was not a basc member, he wrote stating Basc advice was strictly for members and he was now not prepared to pass on my request for advice. Remember for a moment, it was HE who first contacted ME offering his advice!!!

This went back and forth, me saying I wasn't asking for advice, I wanted questions answered, him stating he was refusing to field them inside the organisation. I offered him 24 hours to advise me that he would field the questions and a further time to provide considered answers. He refused within a matter of moments.

My personal take on all of this? Seems to me Basc would have left our gamekeeper friend hanging. Also whilst I accept that the Basque Fighting Fund has produced some good results I have a feeling they heavily cherry pick who they will support and the rest of us are on our own.

Let's be clear here. I messaged you on Sunday 26 October the following - In relation to your query just now on the forum about legal expenses cover, the following article may be of interest. Fighting your corner on firearms
A week later, on Saturday 1 November you messaged me with thanks and asked some specific legal and firearms related questions and later that very same day I messaged you asking you to email me those questions and that I would seek an answer to your questions from colleagues that deal with Fighting Fund cases.

On Sunday 2 November you emailed me your questions and I replied the same day asking for your membership number. When it transpired you were not a BASC member I explained that I would not be passing on your questions for review because your query was legal and firearms related so it would likely be someone in the firearms team that would need to advise you and that advice from our firearms team is strictly for BASC members only.

Incredibly, you were not happy with that and emailed me an ultimatum to forward your specific legal and firearms related questions for review with a 24 hour deadline. I repeated my explanation about such advice being a BASC members only service and gave you a link to another article about the Fighting Fund at https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/a-vital-fund-to-fight-for-our-way-of-life/

And now you come on here complaining about me not doing your bidding. Unreal.

 

[willowbank]

So, having read every word on this thread the question I have, which is still unanswered....on behalf of the ordinary shooter, which organisation best serves our Insurance needs and represents value for money? Fieldsports or Basc?

WB

 

[Chris Richardson]

Country covers

So, having read every word on this thread the question I have, which is still unanswered....on behalf of the ordinary shooter, which organisation best serves our Insurance needs and represents value for money? Fieldsports or Basc?

WB

 

[andyk]

You’re at a high risk of being stiffed with any of them.

None are going to provide their own insurance, they’ll just repackage a 3rd party product, all of which will have exclusions that say if you don’t have at least 51% prospects they can avoid cover, similarly they’ll be able to get out if the cost/benefit no longer makes sense.

I’d expect you’d get cover if the Police decision is clearly wrong but if there’s an element of reason for the revocation/refusal I’d expect they’ll say the prospects are too low and back out, even if the decision is a harsh one.

 

[DocJohn]

Can of worms, this problem of stopping somewhere with firearms on board. This year during my licence renewal, the inspecting Firearms Officer had a useful chat.

In summary he said:-
1. Transporting guns should, ideally, be non stop between points of storage and use. Comfort breaks, refuelling, these are reasonable. Shopping isn’t. The car should be locked and alarmed. It should be in public view, not in a side street. Car safes are great, but a luxury.
2. The guns and slips should not be visible.
3. The guns should not be loaded. Case law here is confused. There should definitely not be a round in the breech but debate has revolved round the magazine in a rifle and whether it should be removed if full.
4. Guns should be rendered unusable. The fore end of a shotgun should be removed, as should the bolt of a rifle.

We all make mistakes. When stopped by a Patrol bite your tongue and be polite, compliant, not confrontational. As often as not you know as much or more about firearms than they do but don’t argue. That escalates.

 

[DocJohn]

The above is off piste from the thread, sorry, but I felt worthwhile. Legal cover can only defend the defensible. Make your position watertight in the first place.

 

[mudman]

In comment 57 I asked an open question to the shooting organisations: why don't you already offer legal expenses cover to your members on the front page of your website?

Surprisingly' Conor O'Gorman, Head of Policy at basc PM'd me to say he would be happy to help answer any questions and he sent me a link to an article on the Basc Fighting Fund

Did any other Shooting Organisations / insurance providers respond to your question?

 

[Mike L]

Did any other Shooting Organisations / insurance providers respond to your question?

Was thinking the same thing.

 

[sanibel686]

Let's be clear here. I messaged you on Sunday 26 October the following - In relation to your query just now on the forum about legal expenses cover, the following article may be of interest. Fighting your corner on firearms
A week later, on Saturday 1 November you messaged me with thanks and asked some specific legal and firearms related questions and later that very same day I messaged you asking you to email me those questions and that I would seek an answer to your questions from colleagues that deal with Fighting Fund cases.

On Sunday 2 November you emailed me your questions and I replied the same day asking for your membership number. When it transpired you were not a BASC member I explained that I would not be passing on your questions for review because your query was legal and firearms related so it would likely be someone in the firearms team that would need to advise you and that advice from our firearms team is strictly for BASC members only.

Incredibly, you were not happy with that and emailed me an ultimatum to forward your specific legal and firearms related questions for review with a 24 hour deadline. I repeated my explanation about such advice being a BASC members only service and gave you a link to another article about the Fighting Fund at https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/a-vital-fund-to-fight-for-our-way-of-life/

And now you come on here complaining about me not doing your bidding. Unreal.

Let ME be clear Conor. It was YOU who initially contacted ME. It was YOU who offered to field my questions internally.

The question of my Basc membership should never have been an issue this is nothing to do with personal membership.

I never "asked for advice" as you perniciously reinterpreted it after finding out I was not a basc member.

I asked you for basc's stance on the following two questions for the benefit of readers of this thread to which my personal membership of basc is irrelevant.

1 would you have covered the gamekeeper in question in this case if he were a member of basc

2 will basc be looking to reintroduce legal cover at a discounted rate as other organizations have done.

Now that you have flushed yourself and basc into the open on this matter Conor: My questions still stand. Perhaps you would prefer to answer them on open forum in your own words.

Lastly: Having contacted me in the first instance to open a dialogue then cutting me off with the bizarre excuse that I was not a member of basc shouts a lack of professionalism, competence and a level of secrecy that is indeed "unreal" to quote your own word back at you.

 

[sanibel686]

To the SD members who asked if I have received responses from any other organizations, thanks for the question gents. No-one else has written to me and frankly given the stone wall that basc has just put up, I'm going to leave it there, I've got better things to do in my retirement than push this steaming pile uphill.

 

[Mike L]

Let ME be clear Conor. It was YOU who initially contacted ME. It was YOU who offered to field my questions internally.

The question of my Basc membership should never have been an issue this is nothing to do with personal membership.

I never "asked for advice" as you perniciously reinterpreted it after finding out I was not a basc member.

I asked you for basc's stance on the following two questions for the benefit of readers of this thread to which my personal membership of basc is irrelevant.

1 would you have covered the gamekeeper in question in this case if he were a member of basc

2 will basc be looking to reintroduce legal cover at a discounted rate as other organizations have done.

Now that you have flushed yourself and basc into the open on this matter Conor: My questions still stand. Perhaps you would prefer to answer them on open forum in your own words.

Lastly: Having contacted me in the first instance to open a dialogue then cutting me off with the bizarre excuse that I was not a member of basc shouts a lack of professionalism, competence and a level of secrecy that is indeed "unreal" to quote your own word back at you.

Not a member, sweet FA to do with you

 

[Chris Richardson]

Not a member, sweet FA to do with you

A fine example of basc

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Let ME be clear Conor. It was YOU who initially contacted ME. It was YOU who offered to field my questions internally.

The question of my Basc membership should never have been an issue this is nothing to do with personal membership.

I never "asked for advice" as you perniciously reinterpreted it after finding out I was not a basc member.

I asked you for basc's stance on the following two questions for the benefit of readers of this thread to which my personal membership of basc is irrelevant.

1 would you have covered the gamekeeper in question in this case if he were a member of basc

2 will basc be looking to reintroduce legal cover at a discounted rate as other organizations have done.

Now that you have flushed yourself and basc into the open on this matter Conor: My questions still stand. Perhaps you would prefer to answer them on open forum in your own words.

Lastly: Having contacted me in the first instance to open a dialogue then cutting me off with the bizarre excuse that I was not a member of basc shouts a lack of professionalism, competence and a level of secrecy that is indeed "unreal" to quote your own word back at you.

Let's be clear. Your arguments are disingenous, and well you know it, as a SD member since 2010, and more fool me for contacting you trying to help given your subsequent conduct. You have admitted that you are not a BASC member. Your expectations are misplaced that I would contact colleagues in BASC seeking answers to your specific legal and firearms related queries. I suggest you join BASC and email firearms@basc.org.uk with your specific legal and firearms related queries.

Here are the weblinks I sent you:

Fighting your corner on firearms

Gareth Dockerty discusses the legal support available to BASC members to contest firearms cases.

basc.org.uk

A vital fund to fight for our way of life

Explore A Vital Fund To Fight For Our Way Of Life with Shooting UK. Get the latest shooting and gundog news, expert analysis, and field updates from across the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Join

As a member of BASC you not only get all the help and support, you are also helping support our continued fight for sustainable shooting.

basc.org.uk

 

[sanibel686]

Let's be clear. Your arguments are disingenous, and well you know it, as a SD member since 2010, and more fool me for contacting you trying to help given your subsequent conduct. You have admitted that you are not a BASC member. Your expectations are misplaced that I would contact colleagues in BASC seeking answers to your specific legal and firearms related queries. I suggest you join BASC and email firearms@basc.org.uk with your specific legal and firearms related queries.

You appear to be twisting and turning like a politician stuck in the headlights on question time.

Dismantling your script above piece by piece.

"Let's be clear. Your arguments are disingenuous, and well you know it"

No, it is your words that are disingenuous evasive divisive and misleading. The only thing you appear to have learned is to steal my rhetoric "let's be clear, and well you know it.

"As a SD member since 2010"

I have also been a member since 2010 Conor, so what do we do now? Shall we go down to months and days to see who's been here longest! Are we playing top trumps? Your rhetoric has shades of that famous saying; patriotism is the last bastian of a scoundrel, in your case it's length of membership!


"more fool me for contacting you trying to help given your subsequent conduct"

My conduct? Look in the mirror. I am just a man in the street whereas you are a director of the largest shooting organization in the UK your fellow directors may consider your conduct unbecoming of your lofty position.

"You have ADMITTED that you are not a BASC member"

Now you're beginning to sound like basil from fawlty towers! This is turning farcical beyond belief.

"Your expectations are misplaced that I would contact colleagues in BASC seeking answers to your specific legal and firearms related queries."

But that is exactly what you offered to do, until I ADMITTED!?!?! I wasn't a basc member. For the avoidance of doubt and for the heart of thinking these are not specific legal and firearms related queries. My questions are about basc policy and general member coverage, again you are deflecting from the core of this thread by gas lighting it's intent.

"I suggest you join BASC and email firearms@basc.org.uk with your specific legal and firearms related queries."

Short answer "erm no...."

Long answer

Again with your sleight of hand Gas lighting rhetoric. I was asking you, as part of this thread, for the enlightenment of SD members, about Basc policy moving forward on insurance cover for legal costs and about whether or not you would have covered the gamekeeper in this specific instance if he had been a member of basc.

After 4/5 times of asking you still haven't answered my questions which is the point of this thread.

I think we can safely assume by now that you aren't going to.

This leads me to conclude that you don't wish SD the members to know that basc would not have helped him in a case that could have resulted in his loss of his employment and his t home but took the judge only moments to dismiss.

Regarding your future reintroduction of supplemental legal cover, I think we've all got your answer to that loud and clear from your silence.

I only wonder, given the negative impact this thread may have on basc memberships, did you discuss your actions with your fellow basc directors before you went on this rhetorical rampage with me or are you just working in isolation.......

I'll leave you to have the last word on this Conor but i would advise that you consider your words more carefully than you have up to now......

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

You appear to be twisting and turning like a politician stuck in the headlights on question time.

Dismantling your script above piece by piece.

"Let's be clear. Your arguments are disingenuous, and well you know it"

No, it is your words that are disingenuous evasive divisive and misleading. The only thing you appear to have learned is to steal my rhetoric "let's be clear, and well you know it.

"As a SD member since 2010"

I have also been a member since 2010 Conor, so what do we do now? Shall we go down to months and days to see who's been here longest! Are we playing top trumps? Your rhetoric has shades of that famous saying; patriotism is the last bastian of a scoundrel, in your case it's length of membership!


"more fool me for contacting you trying to help given your subsequent conduct"

My conduct? Look in the mirror. I am just a man in the street whereas you are a director of the largest shooting organization in the UK your fellow directors may consider your conduct unbecoming of your lofty position.

"You have ADMITTED that you are not a BASC member"

Now you're beginning to sound like basil from fawlty towers! This is turning farcical beyond belief.

"Your expectations are misplaced that I would contact colleagues in BASC seeking answers to your specific legal and firearms related queries."

But that is exactly what you offered to do, until I ADMITTED!?!?! I wasn't a basc member. For the avoidance of doubt and for the heart of thinking these are not specific legal and firearms related queries. My questions are about basc policy and general member coverage, again you are deflecting from the core of this thread by gas lighting it's intent.

"I suggest you join BASC and email firearms@basc.org.uk with your specific legal and firearms related queries."

Short answer "erm no...."

Long answer

Again with your sleight of hand Gas lighting rhetoric. I was asking you, as part of this thread, for the enlightenment of SD members, about Basc policy moving forward on insurance cover for legal costs and about whether or not you would have covered the gamekeeper in this specific instance if he had been a member of basc.

After 4/5 times of asking you still haven't answered my questions which is the point of this thread.

I think we can safely assume by now that you aren't going to.

This leads me to conclude that you don't wish SD the members to know that basc would not have helped him in a case that could have resulted in his loss of his employment and his t home but took the judge only moments to dismiss.

Regarding your future reintroduction of supplemental legal cover, I think we've all got your answer to that loud and clear from your silence.

I only wonder, given the negative impact this thread may have on basc memberships, did you discuss your actions with your fellow basc directors before you went on this rhetorical rampage with me or are you just working in isolation.......

I'll leave you to have the last word on this Conor but i would advise that you consider your words more carefully than you have up to now......

The weblinks I already sent you contain the relevant information. Here they are again.

Fighting your corner on firearms

Gareth Dockerty discusses the legal support available to BASC members to contest firearms cases.

basc.org.uk

A vital fund to fight for our way of life

Explore A Vital Fund To Fight For Our Way Of Life with Shooting UK. Get the latest shooting and gundog news, expert analysis, and field updates from across the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Also, there is an article in this week's Shooting Times with some updates/insights on firearms licensing in England and Wales from BASC's six firearms officers and some examples of how BASC helps it members.