Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban

I think it is easy to find outliers that prove that copper doesn’t work. I guess that’s the reason we need exemptions for small calibres and so forth. The truth is most modern deer legal calibres will shoot copper absolutely fine and the terminal performance is also fine. My advice is try it and with the right bullet in the right calibre you will be pleasantly surprised. I know I was.
Try everything once, except folk dancing an incest, as Sir Thomas Beecham said. I am not sure where copper ammo fits on that scale.
I just like lead because I know it is dependable and do not think that the change is necessary or justified.
By the time the 3 yrs comes around, and at the rate this country is going wrong, we'll all be prisoners of Mother Russia, the Govt. will have collapsed, Trump will have annexed us and we'll all have AR15s, or dispensations and practical amendments may have watered it all down. More likely, clever variations on the theme or alternatives will be far better. The ranges I am shooting at on a regular basis (sub 200yds) I am not sure that it should make too much difference.
 
With a copper jacket of some sort !

So, as I say a pointless argument.
Well, I am not sure if the argument is ever pointless. It depends on how, why, by whom and on what grounds and premise it is presented.
Copper jacket or not, lead has worked for many years. Copper alone has not and in certain applications there is good reason to doubt it is up to the job required of it.
Your point is well made though. Lead or not, copper is there already, but in a way that enhances the overall effect of the lead.
 
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they use CNC sliding head lathes to make them I expect the modern replacement of the capstan lathe.

don’t panic few years to go yet to say good by to lead.
Swiss lathes I believe designed for watches and can even adjust the size of the bullet as the metal heats up through friction!
 
I am beginning to think there is an inverse correlation between those who are strongly against non lead ammunition and those who have actually tried non lead ammunition?! With the exception of @Smellydog who gives it a go, and has struggled a little mostly the strongest views are held by the least experienced. I wonder what that tells us? Or perhaps I’m wrong I don’t know
 
I am beginning to think there is an inverse correlation between those who are strongly against non lead ammunition and those who have actually tried non lead ammunition?! With the exception of @Smellydog who gives it a go, and has struggled a little mostly the strongest views are held by the least experienced. I wonder what that tells us? Or perhaps I’m wrong I don’t know
Or that some of us are bright enough to know it doesn't work as well as lead, does not perform as consistently, has significant ballistic limitations, answers questions none of us were silly enough to ask and will improve the current situation not one iota. Oh, and costs more as well. Take your pick.
 
Or that some of us are bright enough to know it doesn't work as well as lead, does not perform as consistently, has significant ballistic limitations, answers questions none of us were silly enough to ask and will improve the current situation not one iota. Oh, and costs more as well. Take your pick.
But maybe not bright enough to have actually tried it before coming to those conclusions?
 
Or that some of us are bright enough to know it doesn't work as well as lead, does not perform as consistently, has significant ballistic limitations, answers questions none of us were silly enough to ask and will improve the current situation not one iota. Oh, and costs more as well. Take your pick.
Absolutely.
At my own expense I'm giving it chance to reveal it's true colours!
So far, not good.
Same with my experiments with steel shot on pheasants in winter. Again not good.

@VSS have you tried any yet?
 
I am beginning to think there is an inverse correlation between those who are strongly against non lead ammunition and those who have actually tried non lead ammunition?! With the exception of @Smellydog who gives it a go, and has struggled a little mostly the strongest views are held by the least experienced. I wonder what that tells us? Or perhaps I’m wrong I don’t know
I have not tried copper in rifles yet but did switch to steel when that ban came in. Do I think its as good as lead? = no, do I think its workable? = yes, so copper will probably do a job with rifles. but ask me if I think this upcoming lead ban has anything to do with science based toxicity issues = NO.
 
Or bright enough to have looked at the results from others and been able to make a judgement. Not all of us are stupid enough to have to fall off a ladder to know it will hurt
Looking at the results from others in this particular debate could lead to you making a judgement either way. There are plenty of results to choose from, both positive and negative. Unless, of course, you have a negative preconception that causes bias in your interpretation of those results.

Personally, I think there's enough people reporting positive experiences that we really don't have to worry about it too much. Development of new products is likely to be rapid over the next few years, and are likely to be an improvement on earlier offerings.

I haven't tried non-lead yet*, and am in no hurry to do so, but I'm open minded about it, and reasonably confident that I won't have any problems when I do.

(* Apart from once, due the non toxic policy on the estate where I was at the time. One round to check zero, and one round to shoot an 11-point Highland stag with my .270. Dropped on the spot).
 
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But maybe not bright enough to have actually tried it before coming to those conclusions?
To be fair, and probably to your surprise, I accept we will have to use lead alternatives. I have no deep ideological opposition to non-lead. I do have grave reservations as to whether it is fair to the quarry. I know that it is a measure forced on us by our enemies and presented as a "fait accompli" by a lethargic, crooked and incompetent coterie of representative bodies who are not fit for purpose. That does rather grind my gears, as it does a number of my learned and more proficient brother stalkers on this forum. I am concerned that this change will increase the incidence of wounded deer and not actually be of any health or environmental benefit whatever.
I have plenty of lead factory ammo and have no interest in piddling about at this stage zeroing and re-zeroing. I like to use what I know works and get used to one thing. Chopping and changing is not for me. Choose a tool you know works well and stick with it. When stocks get too low, or the deadline looms, I will try it, hopefully using the information provided by Smellydog, Tim Brayford and others who have the time, money, brains and inclination to try the various options. They are bright boys and I have every faith that their findings will help me when the time comes. In the meantime I -like many on here- will keep knocking deer over using what we have and what we know will be most effective. The longer I can delay having to confront the reality of running deer or spending hours poking expensive and potentially ineffective rounds up the pipe in the search for a winner, the better. I suspect that by the time the deadline comes around there will be a far greater choice of options in a broader range of calibres and configurations. I will have learned how to home load probably (factory loads are so good I have felt no need until now) which will again increase the options. I hate having rubbish flogged to me or lies peddled and dressed up as fact by people I know are bent, or hungry eyed floggers of "Stuff" desperate to flog more "Stuff".
For the stalking I do and the shots I take, I am reasonably happy that the impact will be minimal. I am just not a starry eyed fwit who laps at every bowl of milk put before me. I am not suggesting that you are.
The one thing that really really worries me, and keeps me awake at night is the risk of injuring one of God's creatures using substandard kit. He will expect me to account for that. In the deer's boots, would I prefer lead or copper? Give me whatever transfers energy quickest, expands best and ends the debate with the least suffering.. Right now, I reckon that is lead.
 
In case anyone was wondering I’ve shot hundreds of deer with copper and hundreds of pigeons with steel. My view is if you carefully select calibre bullet and speed with copper Center fire ammunition is every bit as good as lead and often lathe turned bullets are better. Steel shotgun cartridges are fine for normal distance shooting and can leave you a couple more runners but nothing a dog can’t handle. I’ve only really shot 12bore which allows for good pellet capacity I’ll try 20bore at some point but I think calibres below that may struggle?
Compromise with shotgun I’d say yes but not the end of the world.
As for CF bullets I’d never go back to lead even if I could.
 
Below are a selection of steel cartridges that I have tried (left overs so not all). Starting from the left Remington 10g sportsman hi speed (very good and for the price they should be) Eley vip 12g lightning (best option I have tried) Gamebore 12g multi shot (steel/tungsten mix, dont know if you can still get them) good close in on Teal as are the Eley bismouth forest (let down by price). The others (and all else I have tried) resulted in more than id expect runners and lost birds. Now I am well aware that I am not the best shot out there but I can see the difference as can others. Steel and copper are not as effective a projectile as lead in both guns and rifles, end of.
 

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My view is if you carefully select calibre bullet and speed with copper Center fire ammunition is every bit as good as lead and often lathe turned bullets are better.
Except 3030, so far.


If anyone wishes to donate a turn bolt in say 308 give me a shout because exemption or not my levergun will be running on what works in its action and velocity levels.
 
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