Is there really a good reason that US based powders are banned in the UK?

And the European powders aren't? For example the European RS60 sold in Europe, not banned, which is the same as Reloder 17 which is banned?!
Protectionism, pretty typical of the EU.

What makes you think Re17 is 'banned'? No Alliant Reloder powder is non-compliant with 'Reach' and all are CE certified. After RS60 was introduced under the Reload Swiss marque, Re17 disappeared off the market presumably as a result of an agreement between Nitrochemie (manufacturer and Reload Swiss owner) and Alliant to avoid duplicate products on the market - especially as Alliant ATK can sell every pound of Re17 it packages and ships to north American customers. Much as I personally dislike (actually loathe) the EU, it has NOTHING to do with this decision.

ALL Alliant rifle powders branded as 'Reloder' (plus 'AR-Comp') are manufactured in the EU at either Eurenco Bofors in Karlskoga Sweden (which also makes Norma propellants) or Nitrochemie A.S. in Switzerland.

It is in fact a misnomer to say 'American powders' are banned. The banned products originate at three locations, only one of which (General Dynamics Corporation St. Marks Powder Co., St. Marks Florida which only makes 'ball' powders or 'hybrid ball' powders) is in the US. The majority of the banned grades are from Thales / ADI, Mulwala, New South Wales, Australia (all Hodgdon brand extruded grades), or General Dynamics Corporation, Valleyfield, Quebec Province, Canada (IMR grades other than the recently introduced and improved 'Enduron' powders).

As somebody said in an earlier post, the changes in these products are being driven far more by specification changes from military ammunition purchasers who are demanding much higher standards in terms of clean burning to reduce fouling of automatic weapons, anti-copper formulations, extreme consistency in performance, and crucially much improved temperature stability. Nammo Vihtavuori is currently in the process of upgrading its entire range to meet these standards. If it didn't, it would become increasingly difficult to sell into the US handloading market, but much more importantly it would lose most of its military business.
 
From what I can gather of the powders banned it may make reloading subsonic tricky. I'm thinking the loss of trail boss inparticular. Any legal alternatives (223 specifically)?
 
From what I can gather of the powders banned it may make reloading subsonic tricky. I'm thinking the loss of trail boss inparticular. Any legal alternatives (223 specifically)?

From a cursory search N110 for a 45 grain bullet various other powders Alliant and others. I think you’ll have to hit google and see what suits your needs.
 
Have a look at Lovex DO60. This is a specialist propellant originally sold as AAC-5744, alternatively Accurate Arms XMP5744, as a smokeless powder that works well in large calibre BPCR cartridges up to and including the 50 Sharps duplicating black powder pressures and MVs but with much lighter low fill-ratio charges. As such it was developed (like Trail Boss) to give consistent performance with charges only partially filling the case and to burn evenly without any use of case fillers.

It is a fast burning high-nitroglycerin content product and has been found to give excellent results in reduced and lead bullet loads in nearly all rifle cartridges not just big bore BP numbers.

Back in the days (many years ago) when Explosia powders were sold here as 'Accurate Arms' (a US company which now sources its powders elsewhere) AAC produced a comprehensive booklet for reduced and lead bullet loads in nearly all common cartridges. I used to have a copy, probably still do somewhere, but haven't set eyes upon it for many a long year. This and other Lovex powders are available here, but may take a bit of ferreting out.
 
Who cares?

Honestly there are great range of powders sold in kilos from RS and Viht, available in bulk 3.5kg tubs that produce less pressure sign at higher velocities for impressive loads.
Then you have the Ramshots, the Enduron range, Lovex, etc etc

Honestly unless your hobby/sporting discipline involves flying round the world with your rifles and shooting thousands of rounds at long range (6-1000yds) and you measure the variance in your groups by the digits AFTER the 0.1MOA........ I would argue there is a powder out there that is cheaper (even at the crackers £95-98 per kg RRP it's still cheaper than £45-48/lb!!) and better than the Varget and 4350 you were hooked on.
 
From what I can gather of the powders banned it may make reloading subsonic tricky. I'm thinking the loss of trail boss inparticular. Any legal alternatives (223 specifically)?
there is unique which I believe is still OK and Viht do a couple of powders suitable as do others
 
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Who cares?

Honestly there are great range of powders sold in kilos from RS and Viht, available in bulk 3.5kg tubs that produce less pressure sign at higher velocities for impressive loads.
Then you have the Ramshots, the Enduron range, Lovex, etc etc

Honestly unless your hobby/sporting discipline involves flying round the world with your rifles and shooting thousands of rounds at long range (6-1000yds) and you measure the variance in your groups by the digits AFTER the 0.1MOA........ I would argue there is a powder out there that is cheaper (even at the crackers £95-98 per kg RRP it's still cheaper than £45-48/lb!!) and better than the Varget and 4350 you were hooked on.

Absolutely

Other than Lilgun (cos its the best powder for hornet) and BLC-2 ( for one load as it delivers 1700 + ft lb in my 25-45 ) all my reloading is done with European powders as when i started reloading a very astute shooting colleague said avoid yank powders as there will always be supply issues. Sage advice! I load for 8 or 9 calibres and I don't at all feel disadvantaged on the range or in the field, buying N140 and N160 by the 3.5 kg tub also means i load quite cheaply and get consistency from the powders for quite few rounds!

Though from Laurie's post above it seems I may be reworking a lot of my loads soon . . . .
 
Other than Lilgun (cos its the best powder for hornet) and BLC-2 ( for one load as it delivers 1700 + ft lb in my 25-45 ) all my reloading is done with European powders

Li'l Gun is Reach compliant so supplies should continue OK. BL-C(2) isn't, but CFE-223 is and does the same job. Whether the reformulated Viht powders behave any differently, well we'll just have to see. Nammo Vihtavuori is keeping very quiet on the issue and apparently doesn't want to go public until the entire range has been modified. The most recent addition to the rifle powder range, N565, has been 'new formula' from the beginning and there are rumours that we're already shooting with some older grades in modified form, their having been 'done' last year.
 
Li'l Gun is Reach compliant so supplies should continue OK. BL-C(2) isn't, but CFE-223 is and does the same job. Whether the reformulated Viht powders behave any differently, well we'll just have to see. Nammo Vihtavuori is keeping very quiet on the issue and apparently doesn't want to go public until the entire range has been modified. The most recent addition to the rifle powder range, N565, has been 'new formula' from the beginning and there are rumours that we're already shooting with some older grades in modified form, their having been 'done' last year.

Yes, you told me a long while back Lilgun was compliant, in terms of the BLC-2 I got a good deal on an 8lb jug and went halves with a buddy knowing it would be disappearing, it will be used for this one deer load in the 25 and at 30 gr of powder 4lb is a lot of deer! CFE 223 was once of the next best powders along with norma 20?? but doubt I'll go down that route as the BLC-2 will last me for the life of the barrel is suspect.

In terms of the viht powders I hope they behave the same but I guess from a safety point of view we'll all have a little bit of testing to do just to prove previous loads are still safe.
 
Who cares?

Honestly there are great range of powders sold in kilos from RS and Viht, available in bulk 3.5kg tubs that produce less pressure sign at higher velocities for impressive loads.
Then you have the Ramshots, the Enduron range, Lovex, etc etc

Honestly unless your hobby/sporting discipline involves flying round the world with your rifles and shooting thousands of rounds at long range (6-1000yds) and you measure the variance in your groups by the digits AFTER the 0.1MOA........ I would argue there is a powder out there that is cheaper (even at the crackers £95-98 per kg RRP it's still cheaper than £45-48/lb!!) and better than the Varget and 4350 you were hooked on.

OK then 'Edinburgh Rifkes' I will throw down the gauntlet suggested as easily do-able by you here..

Please suggest for me a loading - or even loading(S) - that will enable me to change my current reliance on Hodgdon Varget in the .223 load I use for BOTH my Vermin AND Informal Target use on the 600 line at Bisley.
Here are the relevant details of MY rifle & load spec'.

Rifle :-
.223 Remington 700 HBVS, 26" barrel in 1:12 twist rate.

Cartridge Details :-
Projectile - 53gr V-Max seated to a COAL of 2.310"
Case - Winchester .223 brass
Primer - Federal 205M
Propellant - 27.5gr Hodgdon Varget

I measured the velocities over my Chrony as averaging 3,410 fps in mild Spring weather @ 16*C in 2010. The 3 shot group sizes were between 0.87" and 0.24" with the overall average of 21 shots being 0.37" @ 100 yards on Bisley's Short Siberia Range. When I stretched the range slightly to 200 yds the average group size only grew to 0.67" for 15 rounds (5 x 3 shot groups). I realise the sample sizes are small, but there were NO odd fliers and the groups I fired were all well rounded clover leaf with three shot groups or that had two bullets completely overlapping looking like I'd only fired TWO bullets on two of the targets....

VARGET gives me very little ash in the barrel even after firing quite long strings of 55 bullets at a time, and the velocities when measured in quite differing weather surrounds tended to be fairly stable through the ranges I have fired this round in .... from a measured 4*C up to a sticky 27*C..

Now THAT really EXCELLENT set of features is what I should like you to be able to replicate (or better?) for my loading please, with what is available in the REACH cleared propellants.. NOT an easy task I think you will agree, but you say it is possible so I am prepared to have my own expectations proven wrong.

Kindest Regards.....

 
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I might be wrong but I think when REACH first came into existence chemical manufacturers had to apply for certification and registration of chemicals and products if they wanted them to still be available. The registration was quite involved and therefore very expensive, because of this a number of products were not put through the registration process and that's why they are now banned. Companies simply didn't think the cost of registration was worthwhile when compared with the return that they make on the product


This is the correct interpretation, not just in this matter but in the more simpler things. The products are not “banned” it’s just that the manufacturers, despite the minimum 6 years notice of any regulatory change, can’t be bothered.

I was working for a Canadian Satcom Company that had compliant product for SES, Eutelsat and Inmarsat satellites but couldn’t be bothered to go through certification. Their customer base disappeared overnight on the last day of exemption. They then found an impetus but their customer base did not come back.
 
Vihtavourhi Tin Star

No. I don't think so. The US forums cover this. Apparently Tin Star has properties that don't make it useable as Trail Boss. All the US forums I've raid voice a preference for Trail Boss.
 
Got any load data?
Cheers
In my 6x45 I use 3gr N310 for about 1000fps with an 85gr cast bullet. I can go up to 6gr without excessive pressure signs. I use Magnum primers.

I would start at 3.5gr for a 55gr bullet in the .223 and then lower the charge until you get subsonic using a chronograph, but best to get some data from someone who's used N310 in the .223
 
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Bobby, without QL to give suggested charged I can't help too much but similar powders to Varget would be Ramshot Tac or RS52 also worth a try would be RS40 and Ramshot X-Terminator.
 
With regard to Vihtavuori changing the powder formulas. When I first started reloading they used to do a PDF of load data. I was concerned by the difference between my book data and Vihtavuori data from different web pages. It turned out that different years manufacture had different data. Vihtavuori advice was to only use data from the year of manufacture only. The difference was more than a grain to max load. I haven’t noticed the same difference recently, then I haven’t been using Vihtavuori for a while.
 
Absolutely

Other than Lilgun (cos its the best powder for hornet)

Never found a need for it, I tried it, but with 35 grain bullets more velocity is available from H110, pressure maybe slightly higher, but the cases take it very well, so well that 15 re-loads is easily achievable. At 40 grain then H110 easily ties with Lil'gun, at 45 grains H110 is maybe 50 fps down on lil'gun. But once your shooting more than 35 grain loads you should be looking at a .222 or .223 anyway.

Neil.
 
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