Is there really a good reason that US based powders are banned in the UK?

[25 Sharps]

Never found a need for it, I tried it, but with 35 grain bullets more velocity is available from H110, pressure maybe slightly higher, but the cases take it very well, so well that 15 re-loads is easily achievable. At 40 grain then H110 easily ties with Lil'gun, at 45 grains H110 is maybe 50 fps down on lil'gun. But once your shooting more than 35 grain loads you should be looking at a .222 or .223 anyway.

Neil.

What velocity are you getting with 35s with H110? and 40's? I was getting 3050 fps at 12.9 gr PPU case (near max, work up folks) at 1.719" COAL 22" barrel, my current load in remington brass which has 1-1.5 gr more powder capacity so 10% higher than other brass it is going to be above 3050 fps but I've not chrono'd it. If you check with Muir Hodgdon's old Max was 14 gr but that was only possible in rem cases so it was dropped to 13 gr, pressure at 13gr with a 35 or 40 is well, well, below the SAAMI max pressure.

As for pressure being a little bit higher with H110, hodgdon's minimum load data for the same bullet and the 2 powders indicates 22,000 CUP for Lilgun and 32,700 for H110, thats basically 50% higher for 111 fps gain. At the other end and max loads Lilgun is at 28,400 CUP verses 41,800 for H110, that's a huge difference, not slightly higher.

 

[Laurie]

OK then 'Edinburgh Rifkes' I will throw down the gauntlet suggested as easily do-able by you here..

Please suggest for me a loading - or even loading(S) - that will enable me to change my current reliance on Hodgdon Varget in the .223 load I use for BOTH my Vermin AND Informal Target use on the 600 line at Bisley.
Here are the relevant details of MY rifle & load spec'.

I'm not Edinburgh Rifles (although I've lived there a long time ago), but ....

Reload Swiss RS52. I have yet to fail to get it to work at least as well as VarGet, usually better, in three or four cartridges so far each in a different calibre (including 223 and 308) where I switched to this grade from Hodgdon / ADI products years before most people here had even heard of it and when Reach was just a murmur spoken quietly between people in the guntrade.

If Reload Swiss provides data for the cartridge well and good. Unsurprisingly they do for 223.

Reload Swiss | Reload Swiss Load Data

If not, take the starting load for VarGet and work up from there. RS52 usually allows a slightly heavier top load than the ADI powder, but don't take that as gospel for every cartridge and components combination.

RS50 is a slightly lower performance variant, but is if anything more flexible.

RS40 is significantly 'quicker' but is in fact the canister grade version of the bulk propellant used by RUAG to load the Swiss GP90 military variant of the cartridge with a 63gn FMJBT bullet, this reckoned to be a high-grade take on the 5.56X45mm concept.

 

[bowji john]

REACH is protectionism masquerading as science

 

[Heym SR20]

What’s the fuss about. For 10 years I have been reloading with IMR 4831 and 4350 and constantly it’s been “oh we are waiting for it to be imported from the US - need a container load etc and ITAR export permits etc etc and US supplyvis short because of Iraq, Obama, Trump etc etc .” And at £40+ a lb not that cheap either. Ditto with US Bullets. And you are buying 1940’s technology.

Now with European Vihtavuori, Swiss the supply chain (for now) is a lot easier. And these are newer modern powders, and being manufactured in large quantities.

Vihtavuori, Swiss etc are readily available and whilst in 1kg tubs at £75 or so they are substantially cheaper per Lb than the US powders.

And what’s so hard in reading some data, or going to quickload. Getting a start and end load for say 7x65r with N540.

Loading up 10 rounds at .3 gn increments starting at the starting loading. The test fire them all at the same target at 100 or 200m on a calm day. Check for pressure signs and also see if there is any cluster on the target.

Then load up three to five rounds of either around a cluster, or at around the velocities you are seeking. And test for grouping.

Find the best load. Load up several and go hunting.

I am quite pleased our regulators are taking out dangerous substances out of products. We no longer have leaded petrol or paint. In deodorants and aerosols many substances that were harmful are no longer used, and the hydrocarbon propellants are next on the list. And it’s no longer acceptable to belch black smoke from a truck.

I know we all hark back to the days of steam engines and cordite, but 50 years ago most of us on SD who are over 50 would be on our last legs, Cancer was a death sentence, and death rates in farming, construction, industry were high.

Looking back in old company records of a housing business, there were many serious accidents during the 1950’s and 60’s - about one man dead for every street of houses.

The fact that EU directives, that the British Government has enshrined in U.K. law, have made it a much safer place and healthier place to live. And that 50 is not these days old, is I think a good thing.

 

[Hornet 6]

What velocity are you getting with 35s with H110? and 40's? I was getting 3050 fps at 12.9 gr PPU case (near max, work up folks) at 1.719" COAL 22" barrel, my current load in remington brass which has 1-1.5 gr more powder capacity so 10% higher than other brass it is going to be above 3050 fps but I've not chrono'd it. If you check with Muir Hodgdon's old Max was 14 gr but that was only possible in rem cases so it was dropped to 13 gr, pressure at 13gr with a 35 or 40 is well, well, below the SAAMI max pressure.

As for pressure being a little bit higher with H110, hodgdon's minimum load data for the same bullet and the 2 powders indicates 22,000 CUP for Lilgun and 32,700 for H110, thats basically 50% higher for 111 fps gain. At the other end and max loads Lilgun is at 28,400 CUP verses 41,800 for H110, that's a huge difference, not slightly higher.

11.7 grains was giving 3200fps from PPU brass fired from a 22 inch barrel, that dropped to 3095fps when barrel was cut to 18 inch.
As for the the actual pressure, its within limits, the brass lasts well and it's accurate.
Lil'gun gave lsst velocity and accuracy was not as good.
I didn't look further than that, I may have used the Lil'gun had I shot more 45 grain bullets, but never found a need for them.

Neil.

 

[nun_hunter]

Very nice post Heym this is what I console myself with that although I can't afford to buy a house and likely never will I have been able to enjoy the birth of the internet and some huge leaps in technology. Also I should live longer than my parents and see my grandkids and hopefully great grandkids.

 

[paul o']

Did the UK/GB Ban it or was it the sprouts in the EU that banned it for us ???? just about to try the RS62

 

[Heym SR20]

Did the UK/GB Ban it or was it the sprouts in the EU that banned it for us ???? just about to try the RS62

The EU sprouts made a directive or recommendation based on votes at the European Parliament which is served by MEPs elected from all of Europe. The U.K. and other governments then implement the directives with U.K. choosing to enshrine it into law as the way of implementation.

 

[kennyc]

Did the UK/GB Ban it or was it the sprouts in the EU that banned it for us ???? just about to try the RS62

nope it was the boogieman who lives under the watering can at the bottom of the garden seriously this "us and them" attitude was old before the Brexit debacle at the moment and certainly when the REACH decision was taken "we" WERE the EU, equal members etc..... and while it might suit the bigotted bitter members of society to believe otherwise the UK had a say in most if not all important things and had the ability to decide our own destiny, just because the tosspots we elected to parliement decided not to avail themselves of those abilities is, strangely enough, not the EU's fault.
So before someone else asks will REACH go away when we leave.......almost certainly not! the UK establishment has accepted its implementation and has no wish to spend considerable time and money reinventing the wheel
Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the World in general isn't interested in how inconvenient it is that certain old fashioned powders are no longer importable, not when there are plenty of newer designs available at the same or lower price, nostalgia eh ?

 

[paul o']

Bigotted me? just because I can remember when , being British stood for something good and not like a dog that rolls over and has it belly rubbed and is happy to walk in there shadows ! how can that make me a Bigot , we were on the cusp of giving away 39Bil of tax payers money for no reward for a chance not to have any say in our way of life ! The British Bigots that lay in the ground just over the water cert would not be happy with being called bigots they lay there defending the rights of FREEMEN and COUNTRIES to be free to Govern Themselves under there own flags and not to be run by a Foreign Power . The British bigots had to pay the yanks to help the same Countries that now wish to keep us in there grubby hands , This being the very same countries The British public were still having to pay the bill for doing this just thing late into the 20th Cent? and still had to have rationing way into the 50's and more ?
The Pound had to be deflated as part of the USA Bail out loan Bigots Hmm if that makes me ONE then iam happy to stand in the shadows of the men that were far better and able to stand in the way of Money grabbing Dictators . Old saying " I fear my Government but I love my Country "

 

[Highlandsjohn]

nope it was the boogieman who lives under the watering can at the bottom of the garden seriously this "us and them" attitude was old before the Brexit debacle at the moment and certainly when the REACH decision was taken "we" WERE the EU, equal members etc..... and while it might suit the bigotted bitter members of society to believe otherwise the UK had a say in most if not all important things and had the ability to decide our own destiny, just because the tosspots we elected to parliement decided not to avail themselves of those abilities is, strangely enough, not the EU's fault.
So before someone else asks will REACH go away when we leave.......almost certainly not! the UK establishment has accepted its implementation and has no wish to spend considerable time and money reinventing the wheel
Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the World in general isn't interested in how inconvenient it is that certain old fashioned powders are no longer importable, not when there are plenty of newer designs available at the same or lower price, nostalgia eh ?

Fair commentary K. jc

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

OK then 'Edinburgh Rifkes' I will throw down the gauntlet suggested as easily do-able by you here..

Please suggest for me a loading - or even loading(S) - that will enable me to change my current reliance on Hodgdon Varget in the .223 load I use for BOTH my Vermin AND Informal Target use on the 600 line at Bisley.
Here are the relevant details of MY rifle & load spec'.

Rifle :-
.223 Remington 700 HBVS, 26" barrel in 1:12 twist rate.

Cartridge Details :-
Projectile - 53gr V-Max seated to a COAL of 2.310"
Case - Winchester .223 brass
Primer - Federal 205M
Propellant - 27.5gr Hodgdon Varget

I measured the velocities over my Chrony as averaging 3,410 fps in mild Spring weather @ 16*C in 2010. The 3 shot group sizes were between 0.87" and 0.24" with the overall average of 21 shots being 0.37" @ 100 yards on Bisley's Short Siberia Range. When I stretched the range slightly to 200 yds the average group size only grew to 0.67" for 15 rounds (5 x 3 shot groups). I realise the sample sizes are small, but there were NO odd fliers and the groups I fired were all well rounded clover leaf with three shot groups or that had two bullets completely overlapping looking like I'd only fired TWO bullets on two of the targets....

VARGET gives me very little ash in the barrel even after firing quite long strings of 55 bullets at a time, and the velocities when measured in quite differing weather surrounds tended to be fairly stable through the ranges I have fired this round in .... from a measured 4*C up to a sticky 27*C..

Now THAT really EXCELLENT set of features is what I should like you to be able to replicate (or better?) for my loading please, with what is available in the REACH cleared propellants.. NOT an easy task I think you will agree, but you say it is possible so I am prepared to have my own expectations proven wrong.

Kindest Regards.....

Although never a good idea to just chase velocity three examples below match or exceed your previous load
Not knowing your H2O volume it has to be assumed
if your load data above is correct then the comparable Varget load using the case volumes is waaayy over pressure and compressed....





The Viht Norma and RS options are below

These are obviously upper limits below but the efficiency, burn percentage and curves produced should give you some food for thought.
Can't comment on the "ash" factor but any powder leaving a lot of carbon or sooty residue should be viewed with suspicion obviously

Accuracy is obviously the biggest factor that no amount of mental masturbation and Quickload manipulation can account for
look at the barrel times


N130



RS40



Norma 200

 

[kennyc]

Bigotted me? just because I can remember when , being British stood for something good and not like a dog that rolls over and has it belly rubbed and is happy to walk in there shadows ! how can that make me a Bigot , we were on the cusp of giving away 39Bil of tax payers money for no reward for a chance not to have any say in our way of life ! The British Bigots that lay in the ground just over the water cert would not be happy with being called bigots they lay there defending the rights of FREEMEN and COUNTRIES to be free to Govern Themselves under there own flags and not to be run by a Foreign Power . The British bigots had to pay the yanks to help the same Countries that now wish to keep us in there grubby hands , This being the very same countries The British public were still having to pay the bill for doing this just thing late into the 20th Cent? and still had to have rationing way into the 50's and more ?
The Pound had to be deflated as part of the USA Bail out loan Bigots Hmm if that makes me ONE then iam happy to stand in the shadows of the men that were far better and able to stand in the way of Money grabbing Dictators . Old saying " I fear my Government but I love my Country "

as usual you distort fact and history in order to support your view, you like to believe that we were the victims of those nasty Eurocrats, we were more than willing partners in the EU, we also failed to enforce some of those same laws, and people such as yourselves have used that as an excuse to push to leave (I'm talking about free movement here, it was in the UK governments power to enforce the EU laws on this, they chose to not do so)
as to whether you are a bigot yourself? you tell me
bigot
/ˈbɪɡət/
noun
noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions

As to those fallen that you speak of, how many of them would be happy to see future generations fall in wars? never forget the reason behind the formation of the EU/EEC ! the last 70 years or so on the European mainland have been a peaceful time in comparison to the 70 before them, or indeed the centuries before them! you apparently would rather see a return to the "good old days " than sit around a table and discuss problems like a civilised society ?

 

[paul o']

Its ok sitting around the table but when none wish to hear what you have to say but impose stupid red tape laws that are at the cost to us whats the point ,

 

[20-250]

The British bigots had to pay the yanks to help the same Countries that now wish to keep us in there grubby hands , This being the very same countries The British public were still having to pay the bill for doing this just thing late into the 20th Cent? "

It was worse than that. We actually finished repaying the Americans for the WW2 Leaselend scheme on the last working day of 2006.

 

[GnZ]

REACH focuses on chemicals which are toxic and could be replaced by less toxic substitutes. In the case of U.S powders it seems Dibutyl Phthalate Dibutyl phthalate - Substance Information - ECHA
Is the main cause for concern. Most of the U.S powders are being bought into line regards REACH. It may take a while for them to arrive in the UK though..

 

[Blobby159]

I'm not Edinburgh Rifles (although I've lived there a long time ago), but ....

Reload Swiss RS52. I have yet to fail to get it to work at least as well as VarGet, usually better, in three or four cartridges so far each in a different calibre (including 223 and 308) where I switched to this grade from Hodgdon / ADI products years before most people here had even heard of it and when Reach was just a murmur spoken quietly between people in the guntrade.

If Reload Swiss provides data for the cartridge well and good. Unsurprisingly they do for 223.

Reload Swiss | Reload Swiss Load Data

If not, take the starting load for VarGet and work up from there. RS52 usually allows a slightly heavier top load than the ADI powder, but don't take that as gospel for every cartridge and components combination.

RS50 is a slightly lower performance variant, but is if anything more flexible.

RS40 is significantly 'quicker' but is in fact the canister grade version of the bulk propellant used by RUAG to load the Swiss GP90 military variant of the cartridge with a 63gn FMJBT bullet, this reckoned to be a high-grade take on the 5.56X45mm concept.

Hi 'Laurie'... My apologies for the tardy response to your VERY KIND reply in lieu of 'Edinburgh Rifles'.. Your direction here is truly appreciated!!

I would not be such a 'wench' about this dropping out of a really much relied upon powder from our UK/(European?) market - I ALSO use VARGET in certain Vermin & Deer loads in my 6.5x55SE with Nosler BTs as well as the stated accuracy loading for my .223 hunting and targetry use - but since becoming a retired Gent' my disposable income has much reduced so buying KGs of different powders from those manufacturers now STILL available here, without a good pointer like yours, would/could cost me a small fortune that is now not so affordable... Also, my personal health for doing all the reloading trials (which I would otherwise have taken on with some relished), now has me double guessing myself as to how I feel about the 100 odd mile round trip drive to Bisley Ranges to trial them out.

Enough of my moaning, and again my Sincere Thanks 'Laurie'.... Good Man!

Kind Regards,

ATB ...... and safe shooting

 

[Blobby159]

Although never a good idea to just chase velocity three examples below match or exceed your previous load
Not knowing your H2O volume it has to be assumed
if your load data above is correct then the comparable Varget load using the case volumes is waaayy over pressure and compressed.

The Viht Norma and RS options are below

These are obviously upper limits below but the efficiency, burn percentage and curves produced should give you some food for thought.
Can't comment on the "ash" factor but any powder leaving a lot of carbon or sooty residue should be viewed with suspicion obviously

Accuracy is obviously the biggest factor that no amount of mental masturbation and Quickload manipulation can account for
look at barrel times

Hi 'Enfield Rifles'... As per my response back to 'Laurie' (earlier/above) I am extremely grateful for your reply AND attached "QuickLoad" data. This, along with 'Laurie's' reply SHOULD allow and enable me to get where I want/need to be with that .223 loading without SO MUCH more powder buying - now more in KGs than in LBs so more expensive if then unused in the future.

To respond to your comments about the load interpretations through that "QuickLoad" program, yes they would have been reasonably compressed were it NOT for the 10" Longdrop Tube that I use for each and every cartridge to get that amount into the case so that I am able to seat the 53gr V-Max to a longish 2.310". At this point, and with the drop tube, the cases are full but the powder is NOT compressed, or only very slightly so.

As to pressures?... I use SOFT Fed205m primers in that load and though they are flattened to some degree they are NOT cratered nor have I EVER, in 1,000s of rounds, suffered any primer rupture or case failure with the Standard Winchester brass, and I have used the SAME brass for quite a few years now.. I will admit they may be slightly "up there" (perhaps 5.56 ish) but the results have always been excellent with accuracy AND quite reasonable speed WITHOUT incident for something nearing 30 years now... Well maybe 25ish years as I did use mildly compressed H4895 loads before trying out VARGET and falling under its spell....
What more could I ask for?

Kind Regards,

ATB ...... and safe shooting

 

[Blobby159]

'Edinburgh Rifles'....
P.S. Agreed wholeheartedly with your comments about the ACCURACY side of reloading !

Regards, Blobby159

 

[Blobby159]

Although never a good idea to just chase velocity three examples below match or exceed your previous load
Not knowing your H2O volume it has to be assumed
if your load data above is correct then the comparable Varget load using the case volumes is waaayy over pressure and compressed....

https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/attachments/1547907211890-png.120115/

Hi again 'Edinburgh Rifles'

Could you please rework and copy this and the other three QL loading products you most kindly did for me but use the actual C.O.A.L. that I reload to which is 2.310" and not the 2.260" your printout copies used? This should most likely provide lower velocities (slightly) but significantly,... a lower pressure max for my VARGET load. .??

Also I note the quite significant differences in velocities from my 'High' Varget load ACTUAL reading (3,410 fps) to the QL CALCULATED velocity (3,527 fps)....
I Wish!!

Also I noted that the QL program has suggested that my 27.5gr of Varget in my many times reloaded Winchester brass is a 20% Compressed Load... whereas I can actually seat my 53gr V-Max projectiles to the (by me) stated 2.310" with very little actual compression ...???? The powder in my loadings comes to just over the bottom of the case neck, perhaps 2 millimeters up from that point... I have absolutely NO IDEA how anyone would manage to get a 20% Compressed load as a fair quantity of the powder would be OUTSIDE the case and lacking the space to even GET Compressed by the bullet base even????

Just goes to show how even this much vaunted reloading program 'QuickLoad' can differ from the real life physical actuality - and by quite a significant margin too in my load I might add!!?

Kind Regards,
Blobby159