John MacNab shot placement

[Mungo]

I’ve recently re-read John MacNab (as all of us should from time to time).

I’d forgotten that the second stag (shot by Lord Lamancha) ran, and had to be tracked some distance before it died.

The passage that describes the shot mentions some rather vague details about where the shot hit, but I couldn’t really picture it, or match it with the outcome.

So: does anyone understand where Buchan envisioned the shot to have hit, and is the reaction and outcome plausible?

 

[enfieldspares]

I haven't read the book although I have read and re-read his Hannay novels, "39 Steps", "Greenmantle", "Mr Standfast" and "Three Hostages".

Heart shot? The beast was dead. It is just that the rest of its body didn't know that?

 

[Mungo]

Heart shot? The beast was dead. It is just that the rest of its body didn't know that?

I think the implication is that it was some sort of attempted neck shot? And it ran quite some distance.

 

[enfieldspares]

Of the four books I thought "Mr Standfast" the best. Yet interestingly perhaps to MUNGO stalking also features in "Three Hostages". Hannay and his "enemy" stalk each other and then Hannay to his horror realises that the ammunition he felt in his pocket is (presumably 6.5mm) for some variety of Mannlicher (which might be 6.5x54 or the older 6.5x52R) when his rifle he has armed himself with is usual .240".

Here it is in chapter eleven of the book:

The Three Hostages

It was now that I made an appalling discovery. I had felt my pockets and told Angus that I had plenty of cartridges. So I had, but they didn't fit. . . . I remembered that two days before I had lent Archie my .240 and had been shooting with a Mannlicher. What I had in my pocket were Mannlicher clips left over from that day. . . . I might chuck my rifle away, for it was no more use than a poker.

It is one of those things I read as an early teen back in 1970 along with Purdey's book "The Shotgun" that had the poem "The battle of the guns". So I grew up always wanting a Boss gun (No other gun is worth a toss. Thus spoke the valiant Mr Boss) and a .240" Holland and Holland because of "The Three Hostages".

In 2008 when I was aged fifty my late mother offered to buy me this, irrespective of the price, below, as a fifty-first birthday present but I declined and bought the Parker Hale .270" in the same auction. But after her death in 2014, from her bequest to me I did indeed buy myself a Boss.

Catalogue Details

Catalogue Details

 

[Heym SR20]

John Buchan was writing in the 1920’s so It would have been shot with open sights from either a Rigby 275, a Lee Speed 303 or a Mannlicher. Admittedly it is a long time since I read the book.

The old way I was told by a stalker who had started his career with open sighted rifles was to come up the foreleg and then back a touch. They would soft nosed bullets which expanded well so behind the shoulder was where the shot would have been placed. If you recall to days of using such bullet runners were normal / expected. And there wasn’t in those as far as I know the “Best Practice Guide“ which of course all deer must read so that they understand what is expected of them when they are hit.

I don’t know if John Buchan was a hunter, in the way that Wilbur Smith certainly was, so totally understood the whole essence, feel and practicalities of hunting. Wilbur Smith certainly understood the differences between cartridges and feel of a fine or rifle compared to that of a military rifle.

Certainly judging by his Wiki entry John Buchan certainly grew up in Scotland and would have mixed with those who participated in stalking, grouse shooting and fishing - and certainly adsorbed enough to understand what went on. He was a civil servant, in intelligence and Governor General of Canada.

John Buchan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The “Return of John Macnab” by Andrew Greig is another very fine book if you haven’t read it.

Edit. (And forgive for going off thread) I have been doing the length of the M74, M6, M40 quite regularly. The first few episodes the “The Wilbur Smith Show podcast” are quite a good listen. In his later years WS still had many stories to tell but age had caught up with him so he partnered with a number of younger writers - WS sketched the story but the other writers filled them in. Two of them discuss at length “When the Lion Feeds” and other early novels. Have read most of his books many times these podcasts certainly shorten the journey.

 

[enfieldspares]

The old way I was told by a stalker who had started his career with open sighted rifles was to come up the foreleg and then back a touch.

Or, see my post about the same time as HEYM made his, possibly a .240" Apex.

But the quoted advice made me smile. For which many thanks! For we must have been taught by the same man! Or his cousin. LOL!

As the first time out on the hill I was given the very exact same advice. Word, for word, for word.

 

[Heym SR20]

Or, see my post about the same time as HEYM made his, possibly a .240" Apex.

But the quoted advice made me smile. For which many thanks! For we must have been taught by the same man! Or his cousin. LOL!

As the first time out on the hill I was given the very exact same advice. Word, for word, for word.

Yup we were posting at the same time. The 240 Apex Holland & Holland - very nice rifles. I did visit the Gavin Gardner auction - not 2008, but a bit later, and he had two of these rifles. Really rather nice little rifles. For those unfamiliar, the 240 Apex of 240 H&H Magnum fires a 6mm 100gn bullet at 2950 fps so pretty much mimics the 243 win, but was developed pre WW1. Just googled and some very nice pictures

Holland & Holland 240 Apex

Was able to get a couple of Holland 240 Apex rifles out of the UK a couple years back, and finally got around to taking some pics. The Holland & Holland .240 Apex, is a superb example of pre-war British gunmaking at its absolute finest. Built on a refined Mauser action, these two examples show...

www.africahunting.com

 

[VSS]

I’ve recently re-read John MacNab (as all of us should from time to time).

I’d forgotten that the second stag (shot by Lord Lamancha) ran, and had to be tracked some distance before it died.

The passage that describes the shot mentions some rather vague details about where the shot hit, but I couldn’t really picture it, or match it with the outcome.

So: does anyone understand where Buchan envisioned the shot to have hit, and is the reaction and outcome plausible?

This was discussed on here some years ago, I seem to recall.
Or was that the first stag we were talking about then?

 

[Mungo]

The first stag was a neck shot that died immediately.

The second ran and needed to be tracked. I will go dig out the book and get the relevant passage

 

[Mungo]

John Buchan was writing in the 1920’s so It would have been shot with open sights from either a Rigby 275, a Lee Speed 303 or a Mannlicher. Admittedly it is a long time since I read the book.

The old way I was told by a stalker who had started his career with open sighted rifles was to come up the foreleg and then back a touch. They would soft nosed bullets which expanded well so behind the shoulder was where the shot would have been placed. If you recall to days of using such bullet runners were normal / expected. And there wasn’t in those as far as I know the “Best Practice Guide“ which of course all deer must read so that they understand what is expected of them when they are hit.

I don’t know if John Buchan was a hunter, in the way that Wilbur Smith certainly was, so totally understood the whole essence, feel and practicalities of hunting. Wilbur Smith certainly understood the differences between cartridges and feel of a fine or rifle compared to that of a military rifle.

Certainly judging by his Wiki entry John Buchan certainly grew up in Scotland and would have mixed with those who participated in stalking, grouse shooting and fishing - and certainly adsorbed enough to understand what went on. He was a civil servant, in intelligence and Governor General of Canada.

John Buchan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The “Return of John Macnab” by Andrew Greig is another very fine book if you haven’t read it.

Edit. (And forgive for going off thread) I have been doing the length of the M74, M6, M40 quite regularly. The first few episodes the “The Wilbur Smith Show podcast” are quite a good listen. In his later years WS still had many stories to tell but age had caught up with him so he partnered with a number of younger writers - WS sketched the story but the other writers filled them in. Two of them discuss at length “When the Lion Feeds” and other early novels. Have read most of his books many times these podcasts certainly shorten the journey.

The gun in the book is described as ‘a light double barrelled express’. It’s taken down at one point to use the barrel as a splint for a broken leg.

 

[VSS]

The first stag was a neck shot that died immediately.

The second ran and needed to be tracked. I will go dig out the book and get the relevant passage

I remember the passage.
Something about "a poor, tailoring shot".
It was quoted and much discussed in the previous thread.

 

[VSS]

This may be it:

Thread 'Meaning of a "tailoring" shot?'

Dec 19, 2018

Hi there, wonder if anyone can provide enlightenment of the meaning of a "tailoring shot"? It is mentioned in John Buchan's book "John McNab", which dates from the 1920's about three gentlemen "poachers" in the Scottish Highlands. The context is a stag shot in the neck that runs for a good bit before being found stone dead in a burn. Great book if you haven't read it!

• Almur71
• Replies: 30
• Forum: Deer Stalking General

I quoted the relevant passage in the above linked thread.

 

[Mungo]

Ok - here’s the passage: ‘In that second, Lamancha fired. The great head seemed to bow itself, and then fling upwards, and all three [stags] disappeared at a gallop into the mist.

‘A damn poor tailoring shot!’ Lamancha groaned.

‘He died for all that, but God ken how far he’ll run afore he drops. He’s hit in the neck, but a wee thing ower low…’

 

[Mungo]

Reading it again, brisket shot seems the most likely?

 

[VSS]

Reading it again, brisket shot seems the most likely?

I think so.
Or very low neck.

 

[Heym SR20]

Reading it again, brisket shot seems the most likely?

I would agree, a neck shot will usually stun an animal, even if not a killing shot, whereas a shot into the body will show a reaction. I have only shot a few scruffy stags in my life, but I do recall one that I shot do pretty much similar - it dropped its head and then reared it up. It was on its own so rather than running it just stood there stiff legged slightly wobbling with blood coming out of its mouth and nose. I reloaded and shot it again and it fell. I suspect if it had been with others it would have run. Shot placement was s little further back than I would have liked. I have also hinds shot straight through the heart and lungs take off with the rest of the herd and then drop a good way off. If you think a reasonable sprinter can cover 100m in about 11 to 12 seconds, a deer that runs considerably faster can easily cover a fair distance in the time it takes for loss of blood pressure to render it unconscious.

A light double rifle. Possibly a 240 Flanged by Holland and Holland or a 303, 280, 256 or 22 Savage high power by one of the other British Makers. Webley & Scott list several such rifles in their 1914 catalogue to the trade
https://huntershouse.dk/files/webley-scoot/webley-scott-katalog.pdf

1920’s - the high point in British Gunmaking. Railway transport would have been comfortable and taking your guns with you for your sporting holiday in the Highlands perfectly normal. Clothing would have been tweed with possibly a waxed coat if it got wet. There was an annual migration northwards early August in preparation for the opening of Grouse, Stalking and Salmon fishing. Oh, and it helped if you your ancestors had done lots of pillaging in former centuries to provide for the manner in which you had been brought up.

It was also the aftermath of the great blood letting of the Great War, followed shortly thereafter by the Spanish Flu. If you were alive and young in the mid 1920’s I think you probably just lived it to the full.

 

[maximus otter]

I’ve recently re-read John MacNab (as all of us should from time to time).

I’d forgotten that the second stag (shot by Lord Lamancha) ran, and had to be tracked some distance before it died.

The passage that describes the shot mentions some rather vague details about where the shot hit, but I couldn’t really picture it, or match it with the outcome.

So: does anyone understand where Buchan envisioned the shot to have hit, and is the reaction and outcome plausible?

ChatGPT offers:

“In deer hunting, a "poor tailoring shot" (also sometimes referred to as a bad quartering-away shot or poor angle shot) generally means a badly placed shot—specifically, one that hits the deer at a poor angle from behind, such as when the deer is facing away and the bullet or arrow travels forward through the back end of the animal.

Here’s a breakdown of what it usually implies:

Meaning of a Poor Tailoring Shot:​

• Tailoring refers to “tail end”—so the shot is from behind, typically when the deer is moving away.
• Poor means it's not well-executed or ethical.”

It’s not an expression I’ve ever heard, and l’ve never read Buchan.

maximus otter

 

[Buchan]

Great thread!
I recall later Wattie remonstrating with Lamancha "You put it deid in the only place you could see, I will not have seen many better shots at all, at all". The stag covered quite a distance from inside the Sanctuary of Haripol back over the hill towards Crask. The reaction to shot fits with brisket/foreleg (as per Best Practice table 2!). They follow a blood trail, with occasional big splashes so there must be a decent hole and something to keep bleeding. So I'd go with brisket region - either just into the thorax and going through the cranial lobe of the lung, and or, severing the brachial artery - although that would also involve the brachial nerve, affecting movement. so I'm back to brisket. About where the blue is

 

[Mungo]

Great thread!
I recall later Wattie remonstrating with Lamancha "You put it deid in the only place you could see, I will not have seen many better shots at all, at all". The stag covered quite a distance from inside the Sanctuary of Haripol back over the hill towards Crask. The reaction to shot fits with brisket/foreleg (as per Best Practice table 2!). They follow a blood trail, with occasional big splashes so there must be a decent hole and something to keep bleeding. So I'd go with brisket region - either just into the thorax and going through the cranial lobe of the lung, and or, severing the brachial artery - although that would also involve the brachial nerve, affecting movement. so I'm back to brisket. About where the blue is
View attachment 426939

That’s about where I ended up thinking it must have been.

So Buchan likely based it on something he’d actually seen?

One thing I love about the book is that they’re not uniformly successful - the joy is in the challenge rather than victory.

 

[Mungo]

ChatGPT offers:

“In deer hunting, a "poor tailoring shot" (also sometimes referred to as a bad quartering-away shot or poor angle shot) generally means a badly placed shot—specifically, one that hits the deer at a poor angle from behind, such as when the deer is facing away and the bullet or arrow travels forward through the back end of the animal.

Here’s a breakdown of what it usually implies:

Meaning of a Poor Tailoring Shot:​

• Tailoring refers to “tail end”—so the shot is from behind, typically when the deer is moving away.
• Poor means it's not well-executed or ethical.”

It’s not an expression I’ve ever heard, and l’ve never read Buchan.

maximus otter

Having read an awful lot of student summaries generated by ChatGpt, I’d be quite reluctant to place much faith in its definition of weirder or older terms.