Fuller details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35812939
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35812939
Land Reform and it's Impact On Stalking and the countryside
- Thread starter David Brown
- Start date
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Deeply deeply depressing.
This will affect not only the big rural landowners, but also all those who have any form of property in Scotland be it urban or rural. Big money is already flowing out of Scotland and this will just increase the flow. Only those who fully support the SNP won't be affected, but why if you have any get up and go will you want to stay in a country that is going backwards.
And all of those of you who enjoy Scottish stalking, whether as a sporting tenant or a paying guest, well you now have business rates to add to your costs of a days stalking or other shooting. That £400 fee has just gone up to £500 or £600.
I just hope that the Scottish people wake up and smell the coffee in May for the election and get of these lunatics.
Yes the tories announced lots of good tax cuts in yesterdays budget. A raising of the base threshold of income tax. Raising the thresh hold for paying high rate tax - its not that high though, for normal rate tax payers taking Capital Gains tax down to 10%, and for those self employed removing Class 2 National Insurance, and for business reducing the tax rates allowing them to reinvest the monies into further growth - all of which can only help stimulate the economy further. Do you think that in Scotland the SNP will bring any of these in - not a chance and they have already said as much.
This will affect not only the big rural landowners, but also all those who have any form of property in Scotland be it urban or rural. Big money is already flowing out of Scotland and this will just increase the flow. Only those who fully support the SNP won't be affected, but why if you have any get up and go will you want to stay in a country that is going backwards.
And all of those of you who enjoy Scottish stalking, whether as a sporting tenant or a paying guest, well you now have business rates to add to your costs of a days stalking or other shooting. That £400 fee has just gone up to £500 or £600.
I just hope that the Scottish people wake up and smell the coffee in May for the election and get of these lunatics.
Yes the tories announced lots of good tax cuts in yesterdays budget. A raising of the base threshold of income tax. Raising the thresh hold for paying high rate tax - its not that high though, for normal rate tax payers taking Capital Gains tax down to 10%, and for those self employed removing Class 2 National Insurance, and for business reducing the tax rates allowing them to reinvest the monies into further growth - all of which can only help stimulate the economy further. Do you think that in Scotland the SNP will bring any of these in - not a chance and they have already said as much.
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Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
And what I expect will happen is that Landowners will just withdraw their support and stop their funding of the estates. Most are currently a millstone that is just affordable with lots of money coming in from elsewhere - members of the family working in London.
Deer, sheep and wild goats will just be allowed to run free as there will be no money to control them, and amateur stalkers wont have the funds to afford their hobby. The only culling will be by Government employed contractors who will come in and obliterate everything - only economic way of doing it - and given the lack of government funds how long will that last.
And no - there wont be any desired forestry improvements etc - the government won't have any money to pay for it, and the landowners wont either. And is natural regeneration going to happen - I think not.
And forget the Scottish beautiful wild places - the only thing that will go in will be massive wind farms owned by foreign companies who all have the SNP in their pockets.
But of course Tourism will bring in all the money - a continuous Edinburgh Fringe etc etc.
Deer, sheep and wild goats will just be allowed to run free as there will be no money to control them, and amateur stalkers wont have the funds to afford their hobby. The only culling will be by Government employed contractors who will come in and obliterate everything - only economic way of doing it - and given the lack of government funds how long will that last.
And no - there wont be any desired forestry improvements etc - the government won't have any money to pay for it, and the landowners wont either. And is natural regeneration going to happen - I think not.
And forget the Scottish beautiful wild places - the only thing that will go in will be massive wind farms owned by foreign companies who all have the SNP in their pockets.
But of course Tourism will bring in all the money - a continuous Edinburgh Fringe etc etc.
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I wonder why anyone would even consider buying an estate (or indeed any property) in Scotland right now.
The belief seems to be that Scottish estates are a license to print money, when in reality most owners subsidise them from other interests. The estate we've been to for the last 20 years is about to close its lodge and let the stalking out to a commercial operation, as there's simply not the income necessary to keep it viable. Removing the exemption from business rates for shootings and deer forests will hasten the decline.
Apparently Scotland doesn't need the £136m of revenue from field sports based tourism: http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B720765.pdf
At least now the SNP can put that land to better use.......by covering it in wind farms.
Class war politics at its worst.
The belief seems to be that Scottish estates are a license to print money, when in reality most owners subsidise them from other interests. The estate we've been to for the last 20 years is about to close its lodge and let the stalking out to a commercial operation, as there's simply not the income necessary to keep it viable. Removing the exemption from business rates for shootings and deer forests will hasten the decline.
Apparently Scotland doesn't need the £136m of revenue from field sports based tourism: http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/B720765.pdf
At least now the SNP can put that land to better use.......by covering it in wind farms.
Class war politics at its worst.
Scottish land reform being discussed on radio 4 tomorrow don't know what time though
I heard a gun on a posh shoot say almost those exact words about 15-20 years ago.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
There are some scottish stalking operations that are vermently SNP and I can see those being the first to get their nose in the trough... all for the community good mind...
and it's not just stalking groups with their noses in the SNP trough. Given they will be raising and spending their own tax money, I wonder if the electorate will be less inclined to let those in the trough stay there.
David Brown
Well-Known Member
I am so sad to see the predictions made by my first post have almost all come to pass. I left that night convinced the land reformists only wanted to see land ,especially sporting estates, devalued and the owners sickened so much they would pack it in. Look what has happened. The wholesale slaughter of Red deer, mandatory catch and release for salmon, grouse shooting and its moor management continually under fire. Sporting rate re-introduction. What have these estates got that is left untouched? Oh their trout fishing ---- but wait . A recent report suggests the Scoter duck is struggling due to the increase numbers of brown trout eating all the insect life!!! I can see a clamour now to reduce the trout numbers next.
All this pressure has emboldened the antis and other nitwit organisations to increase their demands for more radical changes which will have a huge ,negative impact in stalking and the countryside.
SNH are to have the ultimate say in deer management. I can see more pressure for population densities to be set at 1 deer per 200 hectares which is often the RSPB quoted maximum. I still hear and read about "the burgeoning upland deer population " creating a "wasteland " of Scotland using numbers that are five years out of date. In my area you have now to go to the few privately owned big estates to actually see any deer. How things have changed in just 10 short years.
I can see the time in the future when we sit down with everything gone and lament at what we once had.
David
All this pressure has emboldened the antis and other nitwit organisations to increase their demands for more radical changes which will have a huge ,negative impact in stalking and the countryside.
SNH are to have the ultimate say in deer management. I can see more pressure for population densities to be set at 1 deer per 200 hectares which is often the RSPB quoted maximum. I still hear and read about "the burgeoning upland deer population " creating a "wasteland " of Scotland using numbers that are five years out of date. In my area you have now to go to the few privately owned big estates to actually see any deer. How things have changed in just 10 short years.
I can see the time in the future when we sit down with everything gone and lament at what we once had.
David
Salmo Salar
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for the countryside and animals there in, as long as the SNP are in power things will only get worse. Their view that they must control everything as they know what's best will mean we are on a downwards spiral. If this continues the countryside will be a shadow of what it should be. The likes of the RSPB certainly in the highlands have far too much of a say in all matter rural now, whether it involves birds or not! As for their reserve at Nethy Bridge, it has been an absolute disgrace what they have done with public money in what was meant to be an effort to save the Cappercaillie. Never mind there constant assault on the deer in the area.
Its funny that they now have Sea Eagles nesting in their forest, having flown over thousand of acres of forest to "happen" to set up home there! Very convenient....... The old estate is now a shadow of what it once was for many species of wildlife and will only get worse.
Its funny that they now have Sea Eagles nesting in their forest, having flown over thousand of acres of forest to "happen" to set up home there! Very convenient....... The old estate is now a shadow of what it once was for many species of wildlife and will only get worse.
Cumbrian 1
Well-Known Member
Just received a form requesting information on "shootings and deer forests" for the 2017 valuation, it asks information on the rent structure i.e. bag related and a breakdown of game that can be hunted and bag sizes for grouse/pheasants and partridges over the last three years.
Very depressing I can't see any good coming out of this act it will simply further impoverish the remote rural communities. At least the SNP didn't get their way on two points: 1). capping the amount of land owned by an individual or company and; 2). limiting ownership to only EU residents though their is a clause allowing communities to force the sale of land to themselves for sustainable development.
Very depressing I can't see any good coming out of this act it will simply further impoverish the remote rural communities. At least the SNP didn't get their way on two points: 1). capping the amount of land owned by an individual or company and; 2). limiting ownership to only EU residents though their is a clause allowing communities to force the sale of land to themselves for sustainable development.
Mick9abf
Well-Known Member
I just thought I’d add an update to this thread where the predictions of the ‘Charity Workers’ mentioned by the OP in the first post seem to be bubbling away slowly but surely towards a Mugabe style land grab by stealth, well it’s not even stealth.
Since this was first posted many things have changed for rural workers, GL restrictions, Werrity Report, mountain hare protection, review into deer in Scotland, proposed ban on muirburn etc etc (the list literally goes on).
It is clear to me that the ban of driven Grouse and game shooting is going to be high on the agenda and may come, possibly sooner rather than later. If you were to plant heaps of trees unfenced you would have to cull of deer to, say Scandinavian densities (as an example), which would bring it to a point that (deer forests) estates cannot make any money which in turn devalues the land further and it can then be bought cheaper - not like you can’t see this one coming. But at least foresters will be able to cull hares under licence, it matters not that they will disappear completely as there won’t be suitable habitat, they are merely collateral damage in the greater good along with red listed waders.
This would of course mean that not many people would require to have a privately owned firearm as they will have no ‘good reason’, a clear win for the SNP who are quite clear they don’t like us having firearms who have wanted devolved firearms legislation for long enough anyway.
Where am I going with this..... well with polling day I decided to have a look at various policies and found this:
www.snp.org
“We will bring forward a new Land Reform Bill. It will ensure that the public interest is considered on any particularly large scale land ownership and introduce a pre-emption in favour of community buy-out where title to land is transferred.”
My take is that they will look to pass legislation which will no doubt stop an heir getting land passed to them automatically without a community buy out being offered and I do wonder if they aim to even go after those estates that are in trust - not that difficult if you have no second chamber to check you on your legislation.
If that doesn’t work you could always go after increasing inheritance tax to make estates unviable that way.
Now if you take what I’ve said and overlay it with a determined campaign to devalue sporting estates it all makes sense.
Since this was first posted many things have changed for rural workers, GL restrictions, Werrity Report, mountain hare protection, review into deer in Scotland, proposed ban on muirburn etc etc (the list literally goes on).
It is clear to me that the ban of driven Grouse and game shooting is going to be high on the agenda and may come, possibly sooner rather than later. If you were to plant heaps of trees unfenced you would have to cull of deer to, say Scandinavian densities (as an example), which would bring it to a point that (deer forests) estates cannot make any money which in turn devalues the land further and it can then be bought cheaper - not like you can’t see this one coming. But at least foresters will be able to cull hares under licence, it matters not that they will disappear completely as there won’t be suitable habitat, they are merely collateral damage in the greater good along with red listed waders.
This would of course mean that not many people would require to have a privately owned firearm as they will have no ‘good reason’, a clear win for the SNP who are quite clear they don’t like us having firearms who have wanted devolved firearms legislation for long enough anyway.
Where am I going with this..... well with polling day I decided to have a look at various policies and found this:
What are the SNP plans for land reform? — Scottish National Party
The SNP Government passed the Land Reform Act in March 2016, which will introduce major changes to how Scotland’s land is owned and managed. The aim of this legislation is to ensure that Scotland’s…
www.snp.org
“We will bring forward a new Land Reform Bill. It will ensure that the public interest is considered on any particularly large scale land ownership and introduce a pre-emption in favour of community buy-out where title to land is transferred.”
My take is that they will look to pass legislation which will no doubt stop an heir getting land passed to them automatically without a community buy out being offered and I do wonder if they aim to even go after those estates that are in trust - not that difficult if you have no second chamber to check you on your legislation.
If that doesn’t work you could always go after increasing inheritance tax to make estates unviable that way.
Now if you take what I’ve said and overlay it with a determined campaign to devalue sporting estates it all makes sense.
While this "might" be more politically motivated in Scotland, it is also happening in the UK, were a gradual transfer of land ownership was started by the National Trust in 1895. Since then many have followed this route, RSPB, Woodland Trust, Country Wildlife Trusts etc etc and of course National England with their National Nature Reserves and all the MOD training areas while the FC have large areas of woodland managed for public access/biodiversity.
A lot of these organisation do good work, but are ambivialent to our sport or even pest/deer control.
If we have a fall in land pricess we could easily see more large areas transfered to their ownership, in a century or two we migh look back on this era as the second "enclosure period".
A lot of these organisation do good work, but are ambivialent to our sport or even pest/deer control.
If we have a fall in land pricess we could easily see more large areas transfered to their ownership, in a century or two we migh look back on this era as the second "enclosure period".
Mick9abf
Well-Known Member
Bill to diversify land ownership in rural communities put before Holyrood
The Scottish Government’s Land Reform Bill looks to introduce a raft of protections which crack down on large land ownership.
www.heraldscotland.com
“We will introduce measures so that more communities are being given information and the opportunity to take ownership before sales from landholdings over 1,000 hectares.
“Crucially, when one of these landholdings is being sold, we want Government to have the power to step in and require that it be sold in smaller parcels to different people if that will help to make local populations and communities more sustainable.”
So as well as attacking sporting estates and driven grouse moors through legislation reducing predator control and burning the SNP/Green coalition continue their campaign by preparing to pass a bill telling you how you’re allowed to sell a property and more importantly who to……
Community ownership in reality, has proven on the whole to be a disaster where you have different people trying to pull in different directions in a classic case of too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, or too many wanna be Lairds and not enough Crofters if you want to tartanise it, ignoring that by reducing the land mass you will reduce profitability at which point both the rural community and tax payer become the losers.
The reality is that this is a barely hidden attack on historic land ownership, particularly English lairds and sporting estates. I have zero doubt that if you’re a Scandinavian billionaire with some of the biggest tracts of land in the country but are ‘rewilding’ you won’t get touched.
Nor will it affect the purchasers of the Auch and Invermearnan Estate either I suspect....... all good if you're a foreigner with unusual tax habits or the son of a "fugitive" billionaire from Hong Kong, but if you're a horrid nasty English land owner, that's a definite no, no!
Still, I'm sure all of these "Community" buy outs (courtesy of the tax payer) will lead to a land of milk and honey....... that's of course assuming our little class warriors are still in power when the findings of Operation Branchform finally emerge!
Still, I'm sure all of these "Community" buy outs (courtesy of the tax payer) will lead to a land of milk and honey....... that's of course assuming our little class warriors are still in power when the findings of Operation Branchform finally emerge!
lincolnjefferies
Well-Known Member
I read recently that 60% of farms sold in Wales last year, were sold to non farmers. In an uncertain world with a scramble for resources - city money and the corporations have their eye on traditional agriculture, which is vunerable. Its an ill wind and a wider problem than anti hunting agendas.
waterford103
Well-Known Member
I think that the SNP and it's minions will soon be history and whichever shade of replacement will cease these "lawfare " attacks on our countryside . It's worked perfectly well for centuries before all this socialist crap appeared ,we die but the country continues without us .
Sinistral
Well-Known Member
This will affect only a tiny number of property transfers in Scotland, breaking up huge estates into smaller tranches.
Even so, 1000 hectares remains a huge chunk of land. Consequently I'm in favour of it, as it's time for a change.
www.theguardian.com
Even so, 1000 hectares remains a huge chunk of land. Consequently I'm in favour of it, as it's time for a change.
Scottish lairds may be forced to break up estates during land sales
Bill proposes dividing large estates into smaller lots to spread land ownership and boost rural populations
www.theguardian.com
Just like our local conservation society, have more power than the planning department and all of them self elected not by public vote
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