Land Reform and it's Impact On Stalking and the countryside

[David Brown]

Give me a small share of glenfeshie and I could do some thing with it.

Yes, there we have it! GIVE ME. Why not put in a bit of overtime, earn some money , save a bit and buy some land. But it's always- I want what you've got but as I can't be bothered to put in the same effort you put in . I will lobby to get laws passed to make it uncomfortable for you to have posessions then I can take them off you under some social justice/ unfairness argument and then morf into what you were.

David

 

[762Scot]

I wonder what the plan is for when the people that are 'given' land from a working estate all decide to leave! Have any of these land reformers ever been in the hills in the middle of winter?

 

[caorach]

I wonder what the plan is for when the people that are 'given' land from a working estate all decide to leave! Have any of these land reformers ever been in the hills in the middle of winter?

I suspect there will be two problems here - one is that everyone will come to believe that they are entitled to "their share" as this is the message they are getting that soon the land will belong to them rather than to some rich foreigner. What this actually means, of course, is that everyone will expect to take a salmon when they want, or a deer when they want etc. and the outcome of this will be empty rivers and moors. However, problem 2 might come into play before this happens:

The other side to this is that "all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others" and it is clear from every other practical implementation of similar policies that what happens is that the "little people" (that's almost all of us) get no access at all while the party faithful turn the newly nationalized land into a personal playground. Try ringing Kim Jong-Alec up and asking for a day at salmon on "The People's Western Estate of Victory" to see just how keen he would be to have the "little people" wandering around his private land messing up his plans.

I have never, ever, been refused access to fishing or shooting on one of the estates currently owned by the rich foreign oppressors of the people. I have sometimes been told they couldn't fit me in on a particular day but in every case they have offered me an alternative day and have even gone to considerable effort and well out of their way to sort something out for me. I have often paid little or nothing for my fishing meaning the rich oppressor of my freedom could hardly be said to be squeezing every last drop out of me even though the estate still cost him a lot of money to run for the day I was out there. How stupid would you have to be to throw all that away?

 

[NewForester]

Yes, there we have it! GIVE ME.

David

As George Bernard Shaw said, "When you promise to rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on the support of Paul".

 

[David Brown]

I wonder what the plan is for when the people that are 'given' land from a working estate all decide to leave! Have any of these land reformers ever been in the hills in the middle of winter?

Is that not why there are so many derelict crofts in the hills of Highland Scotland ? It is not , as the reformers would have it, due to the wicked clearances but more that these areas can't support even subsistence farming. Even as far back as 1925 with the lesser expectations of comfort enjoyed at this time, a Royal Commission established to see if the mountains of Scotland could be re populated, came to the conclusion that it was impossible without massive taxpayer subsidy. How that has been replicated in many community buy outs to date.
David

 

[caorach]

How that has been replicated in many community buy outs to date.

I have a feeling, and can provide no support for this other that what I observe, that a lot of community buy outs are being entirely underwritten by some form of "renewable energy" generation promise. The SNP propaganda machine appear to be keeping renewables working at all costs. In areas where a community buy out is likely one or two wind turbines are being installed and the community are being given huge sums of money which they are told have been generated by their turbine.

I suspect this is a political ploy to encourage community buy outs (we've got lots of money and all we need to do is buy, put up a few more turbines and none of us will ever have to work again) and also to give the impression of community support for huge wind turbines which were always part of the SNP fairy tale. It also is likely to have a very short life as the world moves away from the "renewables" fantasy story and as governments start to look at the subsidies and move towards reducing and cutting them. It will not be long before the SNP urban support base will get fed up paying a fortune for their energy to underwrite small communities in the highlands with wind turbines which, in practical terms, contribute almost nothing to the grid.

Once the grants and subsidies and money for old rope goes there will be a lot of people in remote areas left with a sudden drop in income, a bill for removing the turbines and no means of support.

 

[Barkingsnake]

Here's a few "gems" from the group I mentioned:

"Bring it on. A couple of hundred years late but better late than never."

"If the main estate owners up here did something more interesting than perpetuate the barren 'deer forest' ideal then <> might be on to something, but the majority do not. Any reform that does anything to take away the power from the few absentee landlords that control where I live in the Highlands would be a very good thing."

"A few new crofts in virtually empty glens would benefit lots of communities and hardly affect estates at all - after all many of them had a lot more people in them before."

"SNP are striving to achieve a fairer society and inevitably it will make the owners of vast estates object as it might take some of there huge amounts of money away and then they won't be able keep the poor down!!!!"

"Well hopefully it might put tenant farmers back in the buildings they were kicked out of, and might fill all the empty cottages falling to pieces up here."

"The reforms are based on empty land owed by absentee landlords,not thriving communities,as for taxes most of the big estates get huge breaks and do nothing for Scotland and as usual people look negatively at change,like Indy!!take a look at community owned Estates and how successful they are then you'll get the idea !!"

"The proposals do not advocate breaking up successfully run Estates where locals rely on that estate I think a lot of these comments come from the central belt, up here in the highlands there is miles of abandoned land,and hundreds of cottages goin to ruin,they could be put to better use help the homless,unemployed and benefit all of Scotland,this is not the toffs tax free playground its our land!!! The reforms are progressive and hopefully we will all see afairer more equal society!!"

and, finally, this:

"At the end of the day no one man should be owning this amount of land and what get my goat is how they aquired it in the first place yes this meens looking back into scottish history . A lot of these estates are inherited passed down the long line of aristocracy ."

So, all about "conquest" and "toffs" so it's simple, like everthing else?

My behind...

 

[6pointer]

I think the big problem is SNP are Scottish and they want the best for Scottish people (Not British) Should we see land reform yes and as soon as possible. 762 Scot there are many many local people in the highlands that could use the land that is at the moment lying barren and the dwellings that are falling apart could be used buy the sons and grandsons of local keepers deer manager fishermen and all sorts who live in these remote places. Instead many need to move away to find employment and housing at a cost they can afford. This is not about dragging some townie out of the city and sticking him on the hill.
David Brown I am sure that you will understand my statement as a writing of there are people that can do things with these areas. Some are very Baron and there are many that can work these Baron places.
Regards me working I have never had a problem with that but I know a few large landowners who do David. I also know many who got there lands as a gift. Charity,s own massive areas of Scotland and I am sure they didn't work over time to get it. Please keep your argument real it was good at first but people are now seeing through it.

 

[private fraser]

I think the big problem is SNP are Scottish and they want the best for Scottish people (Not British) Should we see land reform yes and as soon as possible. 762 Scot there are many many local people in the highlands that could use the land that is at the moment lying barren and the dwellings that are falling apart could be used buy the sons and grandsons of local keepers deer manager fishermen and all sorts who live in these remote places. Instead many need to move away to find employment and housing at a cost they can afford. This is not about dragging some townie out of the city and sticking him on the hill.
David Brown I am sure that you will understand my statement as a writing of there are people that can do things with these areas. Some are very Baron and there are many that can work these Baron places.
Regards me working I have never had a problem with that but I know a few large landowners who do David. I also know many who got there lands as a gift. Charity,s own massive areas of Scotland and I am sure they didn't work over time to get it. Please keep your argument real it was good at first but people are now seeing through it.

Just a wee reminder re the referendum...

Scottish independence referendum, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check the map..28 out of 34 regions voted No...that's 87.5%...see where they are.
Even Salmonds own area voted No.
Check the 4 areas that voted Yes...see where they are.

Bang on and I am sure the Millions of people out of work in the central belt will be hoping this gose through and will support SNP with all there heart.

Millions?.
And how is land reform going to get them jobs?

As you say,keep it real.

 

[762Scot]

I am not too sure what these new crofters or relatives of gamekeepers will be doing to maintain their existence and pay their bills. There are many many derelict properties in the highlands that are not so because of the Highland Clearances . There has been a trend for "young folk" to leave the hills and a life of struggle for the glamour of the cities and to work in industry. I doubt whether any crop could be grown and harvested in the places I pass when out hiking. If someone sprains their ankle they need a helicopter to get them out... no roads. Or would these Land Reformers be just considering estates such as Balmoral?

 

[762Scot]

Another concern I would have is that should Land Reform actually take place and the 'wealthy' landowners downsized and subjected to increased taxation or in the extreme seized... what effect would this have on large companies and industry here in Scotland. Whats effect would this have on businesses that were considering opening here? Whats to stop Land Reform morphing into business ownership reforms. I worked in the Caribbean many years where laws were passed retroactively enforcing companies to be majority owned by locals 60%-40% or 51%-49% depending on which island. We should all consider the unintended consequences of any policy in my opinion.

 

[Amhuinnsuidhe]

Be best I keep an eye out for a good bit of ground for us in NZ then David!!!

 

[countrryboy]

As has been pointed out a ruined butt and ben in the a**e end of nowhere with a 4x4 only track and no elecy is hardly most folks ideal acom, and even the land with it would need to be massive to make it vaible (sort of the reason hill farms and upland estates are so bloody big is cos they need to be as land so poor)

Wot about starting the land reform a bit closer to home? Any landlord owning more than a certain ammount has to give up some of his property so locals can buy it at a cheap price, after all it cannot be fair that some people have many let properties and are making money/exploiting the poor people who cannae afford to buy or get mortgages.
If people where forced to give up some of their properties in big cities/towns it would be far more benefical to homeless as so accessable plus jobs etc, ie all the advantages of living in a town

 

[moonstone gsp]

Country boy why do you look at landlords as money grabbers who are exploiting people. I own property and have worked bloody hard to get them. I maintain them to a high standard and my tenants are very happy with these houses. Sorry but this is typical green eyed monster syndrome. Nothing wrong in owning property.

 

[Taff]

Not sure but I think cb might be taking a dig at some members of the snp who invest in property.

 

[countrryboy]

Exactly so why is it ok to do that to landowners?
Just trying to show the hypocrisy of it all. Why is it ok to take land of someone but not property of another? Why are estate owners exploiting the poor/money grabbers yet a private landlord is not? I know plenty of farmers who have worked bloody hard over a few generations and now own several farms, and also seen previously large farming families go the other way ending up being forcd to sell the lot.

I realise that the SNP are targeting very large estates and granted most will be inherited but plenty of estates go tits up leaving the owners with nothing, so they must be doing something just to keep there estates afloat. Most of the younger estate owners i know actually work quite hard managing the estate inhouse whereas their fathers and grand fathers where to busy hunting and shoting to manage the estate.
Very few gentleman estate owners/farmers compared to 30 odd years ago, and generally the 'gentleman owners' who do spend there time shooting/hunting have made there money elsewhere and still have succesful businesses usually in the city. (so bringing city money into the stcks)

Plus some of these big scotish estates are not worth massive ammounts of money for wot ur getting, when a 2 bed flat in edin is 200k or possibly way more, doesnae take many city properties to make up a small upland estate


Must admit i never knew a few snp folk had a bit of property but that makes it even worse

 

[6pointer]

CB I am not positive but I think a landowner in the city would be brought to task if he left a building to fall in to disrepair and it be came un inhabitable. That's not the case in the country.

 

[private fraser]

Another concern I would have is that should Land Reform actually take place and the 'wealthy' landowners downsized and subjected to increased taxation or in the extreme seized... what effect would this have on large companies and industry here in Scotland. Whats effect would this have on businesses that were considering opening here? Whats to stop Land Reform morphing into business ownership reforms. I worked in the Caribbean many years where laws were passed retroactively enforcing companies to be majority owned by locals 60%-40% or 51%-49% depending on which island. We should all consider the unintended consequences of any policy in my opinion.

How did that work out re the Carribean countries ?.

 

[Taff]

CB I am not positive but I think a landowner in the city would be brought to task if he left a building to fall in to disrepair and it be came un inhabitable. That's not the case in the country.

actually as long as a building is not a danger to public safety, there is nothing they can do, as can be seen by the number of empty property's in city's.

 

[762Scot]

Private Fraser, I know for a fact that this affected the level of commitment that 'foreign' companies made to the island, it also put off many individuals that were considering businesses in the tourist industry. It was one of the reasons for which I left the islands.

Amhuinnsuidhe, The thought about New Zealand also crossed my mind. Its probably the only place I would consider a move to at this time.