Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
To be expected, anyone who thinks that days not going to come is disillusioned!
Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
I suspect they will if targeted by the consultation as they’ll lose a lot of income.
As for the GWCT it wasn’t a dig, it’s a just a fact the GAME and Wildlife Conservation Trust, is interested in game shooting and promoting it along the premise that it has conservation benefits.
What do we do?
- We use science to promote game and wildlife management as an essential part of nature conservation.
- We develop scientifically researched game and wildlife management techniques.
- We promote our work to conservationists, including farmers and landowners and offer an on-site advisory service on all aspects of game and wildlife management, so that Britain’s countryside and its wildlife are enhanced for the public benefit.
- We influence government policy with sound science that creates progressive and effective policies.
- We support best practice for field sports that contribute to improving the biodiversity of the countryside.
What we do - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust
www.gwct.org.uk
No mention of any other form of shooting or shooting in general, they therefore haven’t taken any interest in ranges, indoor or outdoor and aren’t likely to.
Perhaps you should re-read the post I was responding to?
Last edited:
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I have read the various comments. My understanding is that different raptor species can be more or less susceptible to succumbing to the effects of lead poisoning over time from scavenging on gralloch that is contaminated with traces of lead ammunition. The following may be of interest.
Although little evidence is available from the UK, an increasing number of studies worldwide have shown that predatory birds suffer from lead poisoning through ingestion of spent lead ammunition while scavenging carcasses of retrieved quarry or discarded offal (“grallochs”)
My understanding is that research and case studies for UK show that irresponsible use of rodenticides are currently causing greater incidents of poisoning in raptors than from scavenging on offal/gralloch or discarded carcasses of small and large game killed with lead ammunition (but that is not meant as a 'whataboutery' argument against considering the risks with lead ammunition)
See also this in-depth interview on Fieldsports Channel.
It is no doubt a complex issue and more research continues to take place for some raptor species but perhaps on the balance of probabilities we have a responsibility as conservationists in considering a common sense approach to disposal of small and large quarry of pests, predators, and game killed with lead ammunition to minimise scavenging potential by raptors?
Although little evidence is available from the UK, an increasing number of studies worldwide have shown that predatory birds suffer from lead poisoning through ingestion of spent lead ammunition while scavenging carcasses of retrieved quarry or discarded offal (“grallochs”)
- Russell, R.E. & Franson, J.C. (2014). Causes of mortality in eagles submitted to the National Wildlife Health Center 1975-2013. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 38:697–704.
- Hunt, W.G., Burnham, W., Parish, C.N., Burnham, K.K., Mutch, B. & Oaks, J.L. (2006). Bullet Fragments in Deer Remains: Implications for Lead Exposure in Avian Scavengers. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 34:167–170.
- Mateo, R. (2008). Lead poisoning in wild birds in Europe and the regulations adopted by different countries. In: Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans: 71–98. (eds. Watson, R.T., Fuller, M., Pokras, M. & Hunt, G.) The Peregrine Fund, Boise, USA.
- Kurosawa, N. (2000). Lead poisoning in Steller’s Sea Eagles and White-tailed Sea Eagles. In: First Symposium on Steller’s and White-tailed Sea Eagles in East Asia: 107–109. (eds. Ueta, M. & McGrady, M.J.) Wild Bird Society of Japan, Tokyo.
My understanding is that research and case studies for UK show that irresponsible use of rodenticides are currently causing greater incidents of poisoning in raptors than from scavenging on offal/gralloch or discarded carcasses of small and large game killed with lead ammunition (but that is not meant as a 'whataboutery' argument against considering the risks with lead ammunition)
See also this in-depth interview on Fieldsports Channel.
It is no doubt a complex issue and more research continues to take place for some raptor species but perhaps on the balance of probabilities we have a responsibility as conservationists in considering a common sense approach to disposal of small and large quarry of pests, predators, and game killed with lead ammunition to minimise scavenging potential by raptors?
terrier1
Well-Known Member
All this crap about keeping lead out of the food chain.
I hate to say this but I have worked in the food industry for 45 years and they have these things called metal detectors. This debate on lead is the things that the antis dream about we are doing there job for them.
I hate to say this but I have worked in the food industry for 45 years and they have these things called metal detectors. This debate on lead is the things that the antis dream about we are doing there job for them.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
@terrier1 I would recommend the following article from Shooting Times on what happens when small or large game is shot with lead ammunition – and food for thought on the implications for our health (you have to add your email address but it’s worth doing so to read this article)
Toxic ammunition: Barry Stoffell investigates the truth about lead
Perhaps also have a look at this overview from USA:
Lead in hunted meat: Who’s telling hunters and their families?
Perhaps also have a look at the update from Countryside Alliance about 6 NHS hospitals trialling pheasant, partridge and venison on their menus:
www.countryside-alliance.org
Toxic ammunition: Barry Stoffell investigates the truth about lead
Perhaps also have a look at this overview from USA:
Lead in hunted meat: Who’s telling hunters and their families?
Perhaps also have a look at the update from Countryside Alliance about 6 NHS hospitals trialling pheasant, partridge and venison on their menus:
Tim Bonner: Pheasants flying into hospitals
If you have the misfortune to be in hospital over the next few months there might be one positive. The BGA has been working with a number of organisations to promote game as a healthy, sustainable, protein source and the NHS was a natural fit.
www.countryside-alliance.org
This interesting article tracks the sources of lead and the contamination caused.
By far the largest single source of lead is water, some from natural lead (galena) - lead sulphate. When you look at table 20, international lead production in 2006 was twice that 10 years previously. Mostly used in batteries still, and in sheeting - both of which sources result in far more serious pollution for many people across a much wider area than shooting possibly can. Is the EU banning battery production within its borders or lead used as roof coverings ?
This shows the true scale of lead as a potential hazard and I have not found one mention of lead in ammunition - all other sources far exceed this. Interesting also that we had lead in petrol for longer than many and the effect of this is a historic and very mobile lead content in soils (particularly near motorways) but no-one is talking about banning those now we have 'lead - free petrol'. By far the greatest agent of lead transmission is water from rooves, natural lead deposits, lead dust from older paints, scrap and so on and on and on
I find the acceptance of lead ammunition as a real environmental threat as nothing more than a slight of hand but those who should protect the use of lead for shooting are seemingly taken in.
Does anyone really believe that to save the lives, even of first line raptors we must give up lead shot when ANYTHING a raptor eats will have much more lead from other sources, I am sure that California has no other sources of lead than lead shot and the article relating to it is perfectly correct. Is there any lead (galena - lead sulphate) occurring naturally in the Andes - no, its a mountain range so only soil. Even dead animals do not die of ingested lead from natural sources like the water they drink do they ?
I still do not see dead ducks in their hundreds of thousands but then I am biased.
If you read the HSE proposals you'll see this...
It should be clear to ALL that whatever money is spent from members' subscriptions on any "political officers" at Marford Mill is money down the lavatory. It'd be kind to call the process that as has led to this as naive. Probably less kind to call it incompetence. For what BASC with their voluntary ban document of February 2020 gifted to the HSE has now been used as justification for these extreme and harsh proposals.
A clear demonstration of diplomatic skills and foresight last seen from the likes of Neville Chamberlain at Munich is maybe an apt comparison? Actions have consequences and actions not thought through have damning consequences. Simply put some at Marford Mill appear to me so gullibly inept as to be not fit for the leadership of this self titled "voice of shooting" that its members pay for.
So there you go. It is indeed, it could be argued, all BASC's fault as clearly the HSE have clearly jumped on the BASC lead ban announcement to then use that to justify a ban on the sale of lead shot as practical because "a number of UK shooting and rural organisations have voluntarily committed to using alternatives to lead shot....".
It should be clear to ALL that whatever money is spent from members' subscriptions on any "political officers" at Marford Mill is money down the lavatory. It'd be kind to call the process that as has led to this as naive. Probably less kind to call it incompetence. For what BASC with their voluntary ban document of February 2020 gifted to the HSE has now been used as justification for these extreme and harsh proposals.
A clear demonstration of diplomatic skills and foresight last seen from the likes of Neville Chamberlain at Munich is maybe an apt comparison? Actions have consequences and actions not thought through have damning consequences. Simply put some at Marford Mill appear to me so gullibly inept as to be not fit for the leadership of this self titled "voice of shooting" that its members pay for.
The other way to look at this is by shooters trying to embrace it, thus trying to help show shooters in a better light by doing all they can to help the environment
There may well be other deposits of lead caused in for larger numbers than shooters, but largely the public don't care. Yet if you are a shooter you don't care for the environment, animals or nature (we all know this isn't true)
This looks like it's coming and controlling the narrative is more important than ever i.e. we arent shooting lead due to impacts potential, perceived or actual on the environment, I feel for those that have shotguns/firearms that won't cope at the moment but I'm sure something will.come along that works for you
If not and all is lost then might as well give up now and pass on the permissions (tongue in cheek)
There may well be other deposits of lead caused in for larger numbers than shooters, but largely the public don't care. Yet if you are a shooter you don't care for the environment, animals or nature (we all know this isn't true)
This looks like it's coming and controlling the narrative is more important than ever i.e. we arent shooting lead due to impacts potential, perceived or actual on the environment, I feel for those that have shotguns/firearms that won't cope at the moment but I'm sure something will.come along that works for you
If not and all is lost then might as well give up now and pass on the permissions (tongue in cheek)
what the HSE proposal does not acknowledge is the scope of use of lead shot and that for some guns like .410 and 28ga the use of steel shot is not practical. It like BASC assume only 12gauge is ever used. Some parts of the proposal align so closely to BACS’s preaching I wonder if BASC has written some of it.
However haven said that it is not tenable to sell game to a consumer with a label saying this product contains lead a known poison.
What I would like to see is an exemption like NZ for the firearms that at this time will become next to useless without the use of lead, they will be a minority contributor to lead in the environment compared with 12gauge and likewise .22lr.
Again the HSE misses the biggest benefit of .22lr for hunting, subsonic ammunition.
The proposal makes no mention of biodegradable wads so competition in cartridge costs will likely see the continued use of single use plastic wads which may slow the process to move to biodegradable wads, missing the goal of sustainable ammunition.
they are commercially however in the times they where built many guys rolled their own and you still can . Few shoot high volume with them and they can still be loaded with bismuth
seriously thinking of building a bismuth shot maker for the likes of 410.
many nations globally like New Zealand have exempted 410 SG and 22 RF from ban i am reading
Danegeld! Nothing more, nothing less. Just as Kipling put it, more or less:
IT IS always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: –
"We invaded you last night – we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: –
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --
"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that plays it is lost!"
exactly and sensible
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Yesterday BASC published an initial reaction to the HSE proposals and emailed all its members and the links are below. We will publish further information and advice soon.
basc.org.uk
basc.org.uk
BASC statement on lead ammunition restriction proposals
Read our statement in response to publication of restriction proposals on the outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Scotland and Wales.
basc.org.uk
Lead ammunition restriction proposals: what happens next? - BASC
Read our overview of the Health and Safety Executive's proposed lead ammunition restrictions in England, Wales and Scotland.
basc.org.uk
That was always going to happen, I remember saying when they announced it we wouldn’t be able to argue any longer for continued use now the org’s dropped us in it with no consultation.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
My point is that with the standard 12 bore load now 70mm and about to go to to steel with HP readily available, a 21/2“ gun is an accident waiting to happen. They’ve been made obsolete or at the very least become the tool of the specialist user who knows what they’re about.
Definitely not for the dilettante or beginner.
So the report’s view is the only effective way of preventing lead getting in the environment is to put a 100% ban on all use over 18 months to 5 years including ranges.Yesterday BASC published an initial reaction to the HSE proposals and emailed all its members and the links are below. We will publish further information and advice soon.
BASC statement on lead ammunition restriction proposals
Read our statement in response to publication of restriction proposals on the outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Scotland and Wales.
Lead ammunition restriction proposals: what happens next? - BASC
Read our overview of the Health and Safety Executive's proposed lead ammunition restrictions in England, Wales and Scotland.
Absolutely f*cked over…..
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
Lead shot is being banned in the UK and Europe? Who'd a thunk it.
Why didn't the orgs see this coming... oh, wait.
Why didn't the orgs see this coming... oh, wait.
fell side has lead and iron naturally occurring in some quantity . Lets not blame our orgs though , utterly pointless and self defeating
busy looking if anything can be done for the 22 hornet . Already decided to follow the none toxic route with shotgun ( besides the 410) and .22 LR many nations including New Zealand as exceptions on None toxic for those two
With respect this is naive.
People will form a view based on partial understanding - in this case they are being fed a line that lead shot is hugely dangerous to people and wildlife - it isnt, not by comparison with the hundreds of thousands of tons of the metal processed for their environmentally friendly electric cars or for their comfort and convenience as roofing material.
All of the natural and manufactured lead will be mobilised into a vastly more dangerous level of pollution than a thousand years of lead shot could produce and yes, in my view it stems from the gullibility of a few, a scurrilous lack of investigation and a wish to be seen as being 'up-to-date' when the reality is - incompetent.
I doubt anyone who has studied this in detail would say the loss of lead shot is absolutely necessary or even, necessary but BASC and John Swift have taken incompetence to a new level and charged the shooting community for it.
For anyone who is after the truth and not merely a BASC groupie the truth is easy to find. What you feel about this afterwards is up to you but denying the truth is self-defeating.
Similar threads
