tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
That should be all that’s needed in my opinion and no I don’t believe the science I think it was a conclusion that evidence was made to fit
Lead Ban- UK Reach 2nd Consultation
- Thread starter cjm1066
- Start date
RF76
Well-Known Member
Conor,I appreciate you do not seem to have much regard for BASC.
I would be grateful if we could clarify that BASC did not advocate or impose a lead ban for wildfowlers.
The UK government signed up to the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) committing UK to a ban and the first lead shot ban came into force in 1999 in England, followed by Wales, Scotland and NI. Lead shot bans were also taking place under AEWA across the flyway involving many countries. Should we blame BASC for the decision of all those governments also?
I hope you will agree, with that in mind, that BASC did not advocate or impose a lead ban for wildfowlers.
We can agree that BASC did not protect the interest of Wildfowlers in the same vein that it has fought for the interests of Driven shooting over the last few decades. Trying to indicate that it was solely the decision of the Government at the time is a stretch, given how we know John Swift (Hon BASC Life Member) was involved as part of the Lead Advisory Group.
I thought you might like these links;
Ban on lead ammunition ruled out - The Field
A ban on lead ammunition has been rejected by Secretary of State for the Environment, Liz Truss, and there will be no further restrictions on its use
www.thefield.co.uk
2016, John Swift writes concerning Lead Shot
Waitrose stops sale of birds shot with lead as experts call for UK ban
Studies highlight risk to health of humans and wildlife from toxic particles in meat
www.theguardian.com
John Swift responds to Waitrose decision supporting a Lead Ban
John Swift writes on Mark Avery's (Wild Justice) website
New rules banning hunting birds with lead shot in wetlands take full effect
From today, using lead gunshot in wetlands is banned in the EU thanks to new rules that take full effect.
environment.ec.europa.eu
The EU bans Lead shot on its wetlands in 2023.
As for regard of BASC;
Any judgement is based upon the actions as an organisation (or lack of), and how it engages / communicates with its Membership.
RF76
Well-Known Member
More accurately, the EU requires all game entering the marketplace to be Steel shot. Given Waitrose are one of the UK's biggest exporters to the EU of game, the answer is more accurately this, rather than just an off hand 'market forces' answer.
RF76
Well-Known Member
An article that alludes to anti Lead bias within BASC under the leadership of John Swift....
Swift departure can’t come soon enough - community
What a very peculiar person John Swift turned out to be. For more than 25 years he headed up the British Association for Shooting and [...]
www.guntrader.uk
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thanks, so I think we are agreed that BASC did not advocate or impose a lead ban for wildfowlers as asserted earlier.Conor,
We can agree that BASC did not protect the interest of Wildfowlers in the same vein that it has fought for the interests of Driven shooting over the last few decades. Trying to indicate that it was solely the decision of the Government at the time is a stretch, given how we know John Swift (Hon BASC Life Member) was involved as part of the Lead Advisory Group.
I thought you might like these links;
Ban on lead ammunition ruled out - The Field
A ban on lead ammunition has been rejected by Secretary of State for the Environment, Liz Truss, and there will be no further restrictions on its use
2016, John Swift writes concerning Lead Shot
Waitrose stops sale of birds shot with lead as experts call for UK ban
Studies highlight risk to health of humans and wildlife from toxic particles in meat
John Swift responds to Waitrose decision supporting a Lead Ban
John Swift writes on Mark Avery's (Wild Justice) website
New rules banning hunting birds with lead shot in wetlands take full effect
From today, using lead gunshot in wetlands is banned in the EU thanks to new rules that take full effect.
The EU bans Lead shot on its wetlands in 2023.
As for regard of BASC;
Any judgement is based upon the actions as an organisation (or lack of), and how it engages / communicates with its Membership.
Considering your new assertion:
Firstly, when a threat arises, BASC is first into battle. That's not rhetoric, that is what happens, and has been the case with WAGBI and BASC. The early threats were drainage of wetlands, proposed removal of quarry species and wildfowling leases and consents. The threats have multiplied since and include a wide diversity of policy issues including gun ownership and firearms licensing and lead ammunition.
In the last decade BASC has also been dealing with threats to bird pest control, grouse shooting and the releasing of pheasants and red-legged partridge. The challenges ahead may change again. To assert that BASC did not protect the interests of wildfowlers in the 1990s on lead shot to the same vein as more recently for 'driven shooting', is your opinion, but not a fact. Indeed your reference to 'driven shooting' suggests an agenda.
BASC continues to help wildfowling clubs with leases and consents and challenging restrictions. There are challenges ahead on the duck quarry species list.
The notion that BASC did not protect wildfowlers in the 1990s on lead shot when BASC Council was made up mostly of wildfowlers of the WAGBI generation, experienced in committee work and policy as stewards of their wildfowling clubs and joint councils, does not add up and is certainly not my experience of that era.
And at the risk of repetition the UK government (not BASC) signed up to the Agreement on the Conservation of African-Eurasian Migratory Waterbirds (AEWA) committing UK to a ban and the first lead shot ban came into force in 1999 in England, followed by Wales, Scotland and NI. Lead shot bans were also taking place under AEWA across the flyway involving many countries. Should we blame BASC for the decision of all those governments also?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The derogations being considered currently are longer transition periods for some calibres of shotgun and rifle. That would include .22" RF and 9mm RF shotgun cartridges.
In the current issue of Gun Trade News the Gun Trade Association explains that the transition for any lead shot restrictions should be five years from enactment to deal with industrial realities or re-machining and supply chain issues. The GTA explains that ammunition manufacturers have asked for a ten-year delay to EU lead ammunition restrictions to allow for the prioritisation of military production.
At the risk of repetition there is no ban - there are HSE proposals that have yet to be submitted to Defra for consideration.
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
On a slightly larger scale: https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wsb.504 (Table 6 summarises comparative results)
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I hope then there can still be pressure regarding these two rimfire cartridges?
Meanwhile although no longer a member of BASC (I am with CPSA and did not renew with BASC specifically on the call for a voluntary lead arrest) I do welcome the new stalking scheme in Lancashire and believe that is what ought to be being done. Securing shooting leases or rights over land that members might use and as a benefit to also stop the RSPB and LACS securing such leases.
No consideration for .410 then?
Surely this could be pushed for, there are no realistic alternatives and many (most?) guns are tightly choked so steel is out.
I have 4 .410s in the cabinet, mostly used for rats and ferals. Will there be any compensation when then become valueless?
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
At the lead if not the Behest of BASC etc!
Well aware of that if you search my post history around the time of the initial voluntary ban announcement!
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
In its response to last year's HSE consultation BASC pushed for extended transition periods for small gauge shotgun calibres of 28 bore and smaller. Also for a buy-back scheme to: a. Fairly compensate material loss resulting from restrictions; b. Incentivise the transition to lead free alternatives; c. Ensure that the restrictions do not create a ‘false’ or ‘early’ cliff- edge for sales of lead products that undermines manufacturers’ ability to invest in development and production of lead-free alternatives. We can keep pushing on that, taking into account that in its latest proposals HSE has moved from 18 months to up to 5 years for transition periods, but nothing on buy-back schemes. Click link below to read the HSE draft proposals.
So my 5 .410s and 9 mm garden gun (I forgot the webley bolt action I bought to give my some when he turns 14 and we get his tickets) are all going for scrap then.
As discussed with you at length at the time, I do think the organisations that made the initial announcement made a massive error of judgment and pulled the rug out from under any argument for keeping lead shot, even if it was only for the smaller, less used calibres.
I, like many others, feel that the main purpose of the BASC still prioritises big bag driven days over all other types of shooting, when it is the least easy to defend.
Stalling tactics are ultimately a waste of time, whether my .410 guns become worthless now or on 5 years, they will still become worthless and that gateway calibre for young shots, the future of our sport will be removed.
I wonder what the pot hunter wildfowl shooters of 100 years ago would make of the foreshore scene today.
Shooting organisations advocating the use of cartridges that each cost more than what a dead duck is worth.
'Sportspeople' doing 100+ miles round trips for a flight. :- "I've not come this far not to have a shot".............
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I appreciate that this might be your perception but that is not something that I recognise - and that is from someone dealing with the day to day policy work for many years. BASC is about sustainable shooting - that is for game shoots small and large - and for the other quarry species. Here is a recent article on the latter but perhaps timely to have something on the former.
Shooting birds sustainably
BASC will challenge proposals to remove or amend the right to take a sustainable harvest of wild bird species.
basc.org.uk
But there are a lot of other branches of shooting than driven game, if the BASC wants to sell itself as the voice of shooting the focus needs to shift.I appreciate that this might be your perception but that is not something that I recognise - and that is from someone dealing with the day to day policy work for many years. BASC is about sustainable shooting - that is for game shoots small and large - and for the other quarry species. Here is a recent article on the latter but perhaps timely to have something on the former.
Shooting birds sustainably
BASC will challenge proposals to remove or amend the right to take a sustainable harvest of wild bird species.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
BASC's focus is not 'driven game'.
Game shooting then, which is generally driven!
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
A key issue right now is the latest proposals on lead ammunition restriction proposals - with lead airgun pellets ban dropped - hence the thread topic. BASC gave evidence on airgun pellets. BASC is reviewing all the proposals - target and live quarry (including game).
Here is the BASC 2022 annual review:
I thought I'd also PM this to the BASC contributor but post it here as well.
So it is hoped that those with such guns will follow this up as an "economic consequence". I have looked yesterday on the Eley website an find that there are no steel cartridges for 12 bore guns in 2 1/2" that are the shot size allowed on clay grounds which is mostly maximum English #6 or of the maximum payload which is 28 gram. Yes there's 30 gram English #4 steel but no clay ground will allow such that I know of. Ditto for 12 bore and .410" gauge.
Hull Cartridge sell their Comp-X steel in 65mm but this has 21 gram of steel English #7 and clay grounds I have spoken to that have tested it describe it as "useless". And again there are no Hull steel clay 16 bore cartridges in 70mm with suitable smaller shot size for clay ground use. Nor do there appear to be any at 2 1/2" chamber 16 bore steel cartridges in any shot size.
So irrespective of clay shooting being outwith BASC's remit there does need, please, to be a study of just what 2 1/2" steel clay loads are available and what 2 1/2" steel 16 bore cartridges of any type be that clay or live quarry. And of course other SD members reading this may also need to check if suitable steel in both shot size and payload weight exists for their 2 1/2" chambered guns be they 12, 16, 20, 28 or .410". As they may not!
So it is hoped that those with such guns will follow this up as an "economic consequence". I have looked yesterday on the Eley website an find that there are no steel cartridges for 12 bore guns in 2 1/2" that are the shot size allowed on clay grounds which is mostly maximum English #6 or of the maximum payload which is 28 gram. Yes there's 30 gram English #4 steel but no clay ground will allow such that I know of. Ditto for 12 bore and .410" gauge.
Hull Cartridge sell their Comp-X steel in 65mm but this has 21 gram of steel English #7 and clay grounds I have spoken to that have tested it describe it as "useless". And again there are no Hull steel clay 16 bore cartridges in 70mm with suitable smaller shot size for clay ground use. Nor do there appear to be any at 2 1/2" chamber 16 bore steel cartridges in any shot size.
So irrespective of clay shooting being outwith BASC's remit there does need, please, to be a study of just what 2 1/2" steel clay loads are available and what 2 1/2" steel 16 bore cartridges of any type be that clay or live quarry. And of course other SD members reading this may also need to check if suitable steel in both shot size and payload weight exists for their 2 1/2" chambered guns be they 12, 16, 20, 28 or .410". As they may not!
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