Legal advice
- Thread starter fordbank
- Start date
Shootist
Well-Known Member
There are three issues. first the dog, second the fee paid and third the vet's bills. If the dog had been properly sold then it would have been fit for purpose and so you would not have incurred the vets bills but you would have had a functional dog. So, you have the vets bills that you shouldn't have had to pay. You've paid money for the dog in a dodgy sale. And you have acclimatised to the dog which is now a family pet. I see no reason why your starting point is to sue for the price of the dog, the cost of the vets bills, and you should keep the dog. There is no reason why the assumed fondness of the dog should not be part of the process. The fault, if it can be proved, is entirely with the breeder. Your argument falls within the small claims track. Research with the kennel club, then a letter before action followed by without prejudice negotiations that should fall heavily in your favour.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
sorry I was under the impression you had been told about the lack of score for the dam. My apologies.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Also wasn't aware this was someone you knew.....
fordbank
Well-Known Member
To make it clear, I do not want any of the vet fees back, whatever I have spent has to get written off.
Im trying to explain that if I handed the dog back, and the breeder gave me the purchase money back, I would still be out of pocket by £600 ish . This is what I'm struggling to get to grips with, why a breeder cannot understand this.
Im trying to explain that if I handed the dog back, and the breeder gave me the purchase money back, I would still be out of pocket by £600 ish . This is what I'm struggling to get to grips with, why a breeder cannot understand this.
2130martin
Well-Known Member
norma 308
Well-Known Member
did the.breeder offer you 5 wks free insurance with the kc documents
did you continue the insurance after the 5 wks
can you claim from the insurance
it isn't a requirement to have either parents scanned or have eye certs but is becoming more and more prevalent to do so and any bitch I breed from in the future will have to be done this cost will be passed on to the new owner of my pups
sorry this has happened to you Scott esp as you wanted to work the pup sleep on it I just walked out the vets with a big bill and a dead dog let the kids spoil it and you'll probably get to work it a bit .
regards Norma
did you continue the insurance after the 5 wks
can you claim from the insurance
it isn't a requirement to have either parents scanned or have eye certs but is becoming more and more prevalent to do so and any bitch I breed from in the future will have to be done this cost will be passed on to the new owner of my pups
sorry this has happened to you Scott esp as you wanted to work the pup sleep on it I just walked out the vets with a big bill and a dead dog let the kids spoil it and you'll probably get to work it a bit .
regards Norma
fordbank
Well-Known Member
It's this what leaves a bitter taste.
Thankyou for your time on this
Cheers, Scott
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Fordbank,
Firstly,sorry to hear about your dog.
However,when buying a pup,people should do all relevant homework to ensure they have what they are being told they are buying.
When asking about hip-scores,eye tests,elbow tests or VW tests,proof of working ability,conformation or any other proof for what you are buying...........there WILL be certification.
if there is no certification when you ask a breeder to produce it,walk away.
Anyone who breeds reputable dogs will always have this.Anyone who does not hip score a Labrador should not be breeding it.Sire or dam.
I hope you get your situation resolved for the benefit of all parties involved.
Some dogs should not be bred,or should that read some dog owners should not breed their dogs without knowing what they are breeding.
I have heard before,my dogs hips are fine,look at her/him,one can not tell by looking at a dog the wear and degradation of its joints,x-rays are the only way,when done,certification is always present.
All the best
George
Firstly,sorry to hear about your dog.
However,when buying a pup,people should do all relevant homework to ensure they have what they are being told they are buying.
When asking about hip-scores,eye tests,elbow tests or VW tests,proof of working ability,conformation or any other proof for what you are buying...........there WILL be certification.
if there is no certification when you ask a breeder to produce it,walk away.
Anyone who breeds reputable dogs will always have this.Anyone who does not hip score a Labrador should not be breeding it.Sire or dam.
I hope you get your situation resolved for the benefit of all parties involved.
Some dogs should not be bred,or should that read some dog owners should not breed their dogs without knowing what they are breeding.
I have heard before,my dogs hips are fine,look at her/him,one can not tell by looking at a dog the wear and degradation of its joints,x-rays are the only way,when done,certification is always present.
All the best
George
Gaz
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear your news, but unfortunately I would have to disagree with you on trying to claim back your £600. My wife breeds labradors and cockers and health tests all breeding stock to try to eliminate any health risks that can be present in those breeds. If a pup was found to have a fault within 12 months within the said health tests then a full refund would be given and pup returned. Unfortunately for you, you didn't check the parents health tests, was this issue your dog suffers from, elbow displaysia?
Whichever disease it's not normal protocol for a breeder to pay a client any vet costs for any investigative work done on the pup, that as a dog owner is down to the owner. Has the vet stated this is a hereditary condition? There are some unscrupulous breeders out there who will say lots and lots to sell pups and you learn your lesson and will in future do your homework, we found out the hard way too.
If you do want to go the LAW way contact Trevor Cooper
http://doglaw.co.uk/
Whichever disease it's not normal protocol for a breeder to pay a client any vet costs for any investigative work done on the pup, that as a dog owner is down to the owner. Has the vet stated this is a hereditary condition? There are some unscrupulous breeders out there who will say lots and lots to sell pups and you learn your lesson and will in future do your homework, we found out the hard way too.
If you do want to go the LAW way contact Trevor Cooper
http://doglaw.co.uk/
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Must admit not an easy 1, i probably don't know enough on the vet diagnosis side of things, but i think u will be wasting ur time/money going down a legal route. Quite often vet diagnosis on things like that can be quite subjective so different vets will diagnose different things, possibly even to help u with ins? if 1 ailment is covered but another isn't
I think ur vet claimed it was congetial arthritis? can it be diagnosed 100% accurate that all other vets will diagnose the exact same thing? Another vet cloud say elbow displasia (is that not quite rare in labs?) and another could say u have allowed to to much jumping as a youngster (off a pick up tailgate is a classic No No for a youngster, i usually lift them down till nigh on 1yr old) or even walking long distances as a pup
The hip scoring doesn't really prove anything, if a dog is scored it will be recorded on the KC documents, wot generally happens is when the exray is taken if vet think it looks bad/high will say to owner not worth the extra money to get it scores offically scored, which is a big flaw in the whole system as only good scores are registered so skewing the results.
Have heard of some low scored sires which tend to throw high score pups, plus often folk score at bang on 1 yr old before dog has done any work, althou claim work should not make them any worse
For me it depends on the breeder, he may well of had that line for genrations and this is the 1st pup its ever happened to, u also may of had a choice of pup if u picked the other 1 u might not have the problem now.
Unfortunately sh*t happens, if u know the bloke has a decent rep and this has never happened before it may just be a freak genetic mutation thing, but if he his line has thrown a few like this over the years i would have a very different opinion.
If he is local word sooon gets around, i'm not terribly far from u and really not many rogues/cowboys going about this area as too small an area and word gets round quickly.
Like spaniel saisd earlier some folk are just after money money money and is ruining gundog breeding
Must admit i'm probably 1 of the few who would quite happily buy a lab pup with no hip scores on parent (usually the bitch) but only if i knew the owner and dog well and they had had the line for a few generations all working to a decent age. Loads of normal shooting folk just take 1 litter of a decent working bitch, so don't bother scoring. Quite often pups are sold locally so u will know other litter mates etc so will know of any hidden health problems. Thats 1 of the big prolems with modern breeding folk travelling such long distances for studs/pups so u never really hear when there is a problem
Scoring alone does not guarantee anything
Yes it is more of a gamble, but my old lab just done another full days picking up on grouse today no probs at 11, been meaning to retire him for last 2 years but still going strong and got a few nice birds today, no hip score, still had clear eyes up to last year
I think ur vet claimed it was congetial arthritis? can it be diagnosed 100% accurate that all other vets will diagnose the exact same thing? Another vet cloud say elbow displasia (is that not quite rare in labs?) and another could say u have allowed to to much jumping as a youngster (off a pick up tailgate is a classic No No for a youngster, i usually lift them down till nigh on 1yr old) or even walking long distances as a pup
The hip scoring doesn't really prove anything, if a dog is scored it will be recorded on the KC documents, wot generally happens is when the exray is taken if vet think it looks bad/high will say to owner not worth the extra money to get it scores offically scored, which is a big flaw in the whole system as only good scores are registered so skewing the results.
Have heard of some low scored sires which tend to throw high score pups, plus often folk score at bang on 1 yr old before dog has done any work, althou claim work should not make them any worse
For me it depends on the breeder, he may well of had that line for genrations and this is the 1st pup its ever happened to, u also may of had a choice of pup if u picked the other 1 u might not have the problem now.
Unfortunately sh*t happens, if u know the bloke has a decent rep and this has never happened before it may just be a freak genetic mutation thing, but if he his line has thrown a few like this over the years i would have a very different opinion.
If he is local word sooon gets around, i'm not terribly far from u and really not many rogues/cowboys going about this area as too small an area and word gets round quickly.
Like spaniel saisd earlier some folk are just after money money money and is ruining gundog breeding
Must admit i'm probably 1 of the few who would quite happily buy a lab pup with no hip scores on parent (usually the bitch) but only if i knew the owner and dog well and they had had the line for a few generations all working to a decent age. Loads of normal shooting folk just take 1 litter of a decent working bitch, so don't bother scoring. Quite often pups are sold locally so u will know other litter mates etc so will know of any hidden health problems. Thats 1 of the big prolems with modern breeding folk travelling such long distances for studs/pups so u never really hear when there is a problem
Scoring alone does not guarantee anything
Yes it is more of a gamble, but my old lab just done another full days picking up on grouse today no probs at 11, been meaning to retire him for last 2 years but still going strong and got a few nice birds today, no hip score, still had clear eyes up to last year
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
If ur vets and a 2nd opinion says it is 100% correct daignosis and it is in the line/breeding and 100% not due to external factors u may have a case, but i'd say unless he knew his lines carried this problem it would be very hard to prove.
If he has a decent rep the chances are its just an innocent 1 off.
Meant to add to last post, with the new MyKC thing on there site u can track litter mates of ur dog and related dogs, it should be made compulsory that any potentially heriditory diseases or serious diseases should be reported.
So then u could log on and see if anything affects ur litter mates or previous litters out of sire/dam it could give u an idea of any health problems it could be carrying genes for without being affected.
But it will never happen as cost too many folk money if a probelm shows up in there line
If he has a decent rep the chances are its just an innocent 1 off.
Meant to add to last post, with the new MyKC thing on there site u can track litter mates of ur dog and related dogs, it should be made compulsory that any potentially heriditory diseases or serious diseases should be reported.
So then u could log on and see if anything affects ur litter mates or previous litters out of sire/dam it could give u an idea of any health problems it could be carrying genes for without being affected.
But it will never happen as cost too many folk money if a probelm shows up in there line
At what point did you contact the breeder to inform him that the pup had issues?
Are any other pups from this mating also affected? If not then perhaps it could just be an unfortunate occurrence.
Are any other pups from this mating also affected? If not then perhaps it could just be an unfortunate occurrence.
Shootist
Well-Known Member
OK, you've got me. You don't want the £600 that you say you are out of pocket. You don't want to return the dog. What, exactly, is it you do want?
Highlandsjohn
Well-Known Member
+ 1 and I am sorry about YOUR dog..john
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
A gamble that your actually better not to take,yes,you can get dogs like yours CB,however you can also get dogs from parents that have not been scored that are dysplastic and have to be put to sleep at less than 6 months old because the pup can't walk and the parents were not scored or they should not have been bred because of high scores.
With compulsory scoring of hips and elbows at least this would reduce.
The Kennel Club will not do this as they are making money out of the registrations.The health of the breeds should come first not money.......look at the German Shepherd at Crufts,it was painful looking at it,never mind the dog walking/crippling round the ring.
Fordbank,I think I understand the thread.Again,sorry about your pup.
My point is that buying a pup with one parent not scored leaves you with no comeback at all.This alone gives a bigger risk to the pups,excluding environmental factors altogether.
You have done all things correctly,you have attempted to fix the problem with your pup and informed the breeder of a possible problem which you have been told is congenital by your vet,this points towards congenital elbow dysplasia as one of the parents has not been scored.Also the age of onset of arthritis also points towards being inherited.
You have done the responsible thing informing the breeder so he can inform the other owners to watch the other pups in the litter,if the pups are prone to dysplasia,letting the owners know will help the other pups by not allowing them to run about,twist,turn sharply or allowing them to jump from height.
All the best
George
Last edited:
