Managing Red deer - England

[VSS]

I’ll go out on a

How so? I'd have thought 1 stag will pass his genes onto maybe 20 hinds so a bit of genetic diversity on the female side but little on the male side. I know deer parks often introduce new stags / bucks to bring in some new blood but I've not heard of it happening much with hinds / does unless they were looking to increase herd size.

That's a genuine question btw - I know you have a lot of experience of this with your own deer etc.

For a start, the majority of stags born never sire any offspring, whereas most hinds will produce a calf every year throughout their productive life. And the productive herd life of a stag is relatively short. His female contemporaries will still be breeding long after he's been culled or ousted by another male.
And it only takes one bullet to remove a stag. Trying to change your female stock is a different proposition altogether.
Introducing a new stag to a herd obviously brings in new genetics, but the effect may be short-lived. And, if you're running more than one stag then you'll never actually know which one is the sire of the calves.
And if you do introduce a new male, and he's a success, then it'll most likely be through his daughters that the lineage continues, not through his sons. So management of the hinds is the most important thing if you want to disperse his genetics through the herd.
Adding new females to a herd is a far more reliable and long lasting way to introgress new genetics, but most people are so obsessed with the males that they don't appreciate this. It's the same with all livestock breeding.

 

[75]

Thanks @VSS - my brain mulling over some of the population dynamics stuff from uni days and I think we're probably coming at it from different angles but with the same conclusion. Enclosed herds are probably a bit different due to the transient movements of wild deer and the fact the same stag may not hold the same hinds each year he manages to breed.

So in simple terms, in any one breeding season a stag will pass on his genes to say 20 calves. Each calf will have a different mother. The hinds won't be genetically unique but they will be more diverse than the identical male chromosomes in each calf. So change the stag and you get another 20 calves with identical male chromosomes but different female chromosomes. So yes, over multiple seasons and a long term view rather than a snapshot, I see where you're coming from that overall genetic diversity of the herd is dependent more on your hinds.

 

[baguio]

For a start, the majority of stags born never sire any offspring, whereas most hinds will produce a calf every year throughout their productive life. And the productive herd life of a stag is relatively short. His female contemporaries will still be breeding long after he's been culled or ousted by another male.
And it only takes one bullet to remove a stag. Trying to change your female stock is a different proposition altogether.
Introducing a new stag to a herd obviously brings in new genetics, but the effect may be short-lived. And, if you're running more than one stag then you'll never actually know which one is the sire of the calves.
And if you do introduce a new male, and he's a success, then it'll most likely be through his daughters that the lineage continues, not through his sons. So management of the hinds is the most important thing if you want to disperse his genetics through the herd.
Adding new females to a herd is a far more reliable and long lasting way to introgress new genetics, but most people are so obsessed with the males that they don't appreciate this. It's the same with all livestock breeding.

It has certainly been true on 'my' patch that 80% of the time, small hinds will be carrying a female feutus where as the big hinds will be most likely carrying a male foetus. I think this was also mentioned on the Isle of Mull Red Deer study. The theroy being that small hinds will be unable to give birth and provide enough milk (twice as much) for a stag calf to grow big enough to compete in the rut and pass on its genes. By producing a female calf its genes are assured as the calf will likely produce 10ish calves in its lifetime. Obviously, this theroy of the hind choosing the sex of its calf cannot be proven but it makes sense to me. I would be interested to hear if others who keep records have noticed the same thing?

 

[VSS]

It has certainly been true on 'my' patch that 80% of the time, small hinds will be carrying a female feutus where as the big hinds will be most likely carrying a male foetus. I think this was also mentioned on the Isle of Mull Red Deer study. The theroy being that small hinds will be unable to give birth and provide enough milk (twice as much) for a stag calf to grow big enough to compete in the rut and pass on its genes. By producing a female calf its genes are assured as the calf will likely produce 10ish calves in its lifetime. Obviously, this theroy of the hind choosing the sex of its calf cannot be proven but it makes sense to me. I would be interested to hear if others who keep records have noticed the same thing?

There was an interesting article about the way in which hinds "invest" in their offspring in the BDS magazine a while back.

 

[baguio]

D

There was an interesting article about the way in which hinds "invest" in their offspring in the BDS magazine a while back.

Don't suppose you know which one do you VSS? Otherwise I will have a scan through after cutting tonight.

 

[VSS]

D

Don't suppose you know which one do you VSS? Otherwise I will have a scan through after cutting tonight.

No, sorry, I don't remember. It was quite a long time ago.

 

[cyberstag]

I know you chaps are talking about wild or possibly park deer so you have much less chance of trying to improve the "quality" of your deer than do those of us with farms. I put "quality" because of course that is subjective, one person may be selecting for one particular trait, somebody else for a different trait. It is much easier to make discernible improvements by concentrating on one trait, be that body size at 12 months or antler length, weight or number of points etc.
The one thing we can do on a farm is identify the best hinds but even that requires recording virtually everything for at least 6 years per hind. Once you have found the hinds that consistently produce the type of offering you are looking for you can then set about maximising their potential. One good way of doing this is super ovulating the hinds, putting them to the desired stag and then collecting the embryos and implanting them into recipient hinds thereby getting potentially up to 60 or so offspring from the one hind in one year. It won't be cheap and is probably only worth doing if you know you can sell the resulting animals for enough to cover the costs and leave you a good profit.

In my opinion most people would be better to concentrate on providing better conditions and feeding for the deer they already have. You might be surprised at what shows up if you give them every chance to show what they have. Stable social groups, good quality grazing supplemented in autumn and winter, good shelter and shade and also taking the stags out at the end of October will do the job.

 

[Buchan]

There was an interesting article about the way in which hinds "invest" in their offspring in the BDS magazine a while back.

I too would be interested, it doesn't sound quite right as an explanation. I doubt a stag calf needs twice the milk of a hind, they'll have stopped suckling before a significant change in size.

 

[VSS]

The one thing we can do on a farm is identify the best hinds but even that requires recording virtually everything for at least 6 years per hind. Once you have found the hinds that consistently produce the type of offering you are looking for you can then set about maximising their potential. One good way of doing this is super ovulating the hinds, putting them to the desired stag and then collecting the embryos and implanting them into recipient hinds thereby getting potentially up to 60 or so offspring from the one hind in one year. It won't be cheap and is probably only worth doing if you know you can sell the resulting animals for enough to cover the costs and leave you a good profit.

That is exactly how I've gone about it with sheep. Much more reliable way of cementing your genetic progress than simply introducing "better" males.

 

[Buchan]

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[mike243]

Just wondering are the three the same age and size Mike?

two of the stags are similar in size so I assume they of similar age, one beast is noticeably bigger in body and antler

 

[Bowland blades]

The thing with deer management , the other guy in the area always thinks they know more what others should be shooting and what they shouldn't be shooting. Never going to change

 

[baguio]

The thing with deer management , the other guy in the area always thinks they know more what others should be shooting and what they shouldn't be shooting. Never going to change

Or you could say that the other guy in the area does indeed know more but lots of stalkers are too proud to admit or or simply don't care? Having an open mind can prove to be very useful as there is no man who knows it all and sharing knowledge can prove to be very helpful for everyone! That isn't to say that next door's cull plan works for you because different land owners want different things but it certainly helps to know why things are how they are.

 

[baguio]

I too would be interested, it doesn't sound quite right as an explanation. I doubt a stag calf needs twice the milk of a hind, they'll have stopped suckling before a significant change in size.

Obviously it's not possible to measure how much milk the stag or hind calf was drinking but the stag calf latched on twice as often or there abouts and clearly grew faster. There is a significant weight difference between stag and hind red calves shot in November when the hinds are still very much in milk.

 

[Buchan]

Obviously it's not possible to measure how much milk the stag or hind calf was drinking but the stag calf latched on twice as often or there abouts and clearly grew faster. There is a significant weight difference between stag and hind red calves shot in November when the hinds are still very much in milk.

OK, thanks, I haven't seen that up here, but, in fairness I haven't shot many calves. I'll look more closely!

 

[Antonyweeks]

Out of interest, took this chap about 4 weeks ago. I'd assumed he was a young switch but is a switch a mature stag that has never developed a proper crown of antlers?

 

[baguio]

Out of interest, took this chap about 4 weeks ago. I'd assumed he was a young switch but is a switch a mature stag that has never developed a proper crown of antlers?

That's it's first head. No coronets tell me that, regardless of what sits above them. I think that both are known as switch by some. Personally, I would call your one a spiker and an older one a switch though.

 

[baguio]

OK, thanks, I haven't seen that up here, but, in fairness I haven't shot many calves. I'll look more closely!

To put weights to it and these were about what I would expect. The first two calves on my patch were culled today weighed: M 44kg and F 32kgs.