Red stag holding sika hinds

[kingstonandy]

Last night near Inverness I watched a good red stag holding a group of sika hinds on the hill, something I've never seen before.

I had the impression that it was more common for sika stags to cover red hinds, but I may have made that up, its a long time since I did the DSC. What is the group's opinion? Which is more common?

PS: I didn't shoot him as he wouldn't have fit in my sika sack, I shot a spiker hanging around the periphery instead.

 

[HonestJohn]

Never seen this, that’s really something.

Possibly inside effect of over culling on red hinds that leave hard to get sika getting it, so to speak, from red stags. An adverse effect of over culling possibly.

It could be argued culling the sika hinds might have been the best approach

 

[highland stalker]

I have shot red & sika hinds out of the same group so not really surprised. At first I though I was seeing red hinds with calves & followers but it was a mix of red and sika hinds. I shot a few of both so no doubt about it.
Also not a million miles away from Inverness.

 

[Heym SR20]

Red Deer and Sika are very closely related, indeed they are pretty much variations of the same species that goes across the Northern Hemisphere. Indeed the North American Elk is a bigger variation of same. They will all interbreed producing fertile offspring.

Stags whether Red or Sika will always be looking for mating opportunities. So a Red stag that is not able or willing to fight other big dominant red stags, bit able to find a group of sika hinds without a dominant male will no doubt hold them and breed successfully.

I suspect given the complete absence of closed on male deer in Scotland, combined with indiscriminate culling will result remnant populations with no clear herd structure resulting in a complete mix of hybrid mongrel type deer.

If you dominant males and females controlling the herds then they control who breeds with what and probably much less mixing and interbreeding will result.

Deer are also being fenced out of many of their former natural ranges, so reds that used to have been on the open hill and no being forced into areas where sika dominate, and nature then takes it’s course.

This is the inevitable of all the rewilding, wind farming companies and large corporates taking over ownership and management of our wild lands all in the name of carbon credits.

 

[Dave_45]

Quite possibly a second gen hybrid.

Or just a red stag…

Inverness is rife with hybrids.

 

[Mickeydredd]

PS: I didn't shoot him as he wouldn't have fit in my sika sack, I shot a spiker hanging around the periphery instead.

Would shooting him and leaving him on the hill have been an option for the sake of preventing further hybridisation?

 

[kingstonandy]

Would shooting him and leaving him on the hill have been an option for the sake of preventing further hybridisation?

Not an option I would have seriously considered. Shooting one stag would make little difference in the scheme of things, further hybridisation doesn't much concern me, and I have a chiller to fill.

 

[NickJ]

Last night near Inverness I watched a good red stag holding a group of sika hinds on the hill, something I've never seen before.

I had the impression that it was more common for sika stags to cover red hinds, but I may have made that up, its a long time since I did the DSC. What is the group's opinion? Which is more common?

PS: I didn't shoot him as he wouldn't have fit in my sika sack, I shot a spiker hanging around the periphery instead.

In my experience both will happen, I have seen a red stag in the rut holding sika hinds in Inverness-shire and in Wicklow a red stag with sika and hybrid hinds.

I think the reason that it's more often a sika stag covering (young) red hinds is that hybridisation is more likely to occur where the two species do not overlap but are near (so their own species are not readily available to breed with) and, in these circumstances a sika stag is likely to travel further than a red stag. That is certainly the situation here in the North West of England.

 

[Ratel]

My first question is did you see the stag cover a Sika hind. I've never seen it and generally I think the hind may collapse under the weight. I've seen plenty of Sika stags see off a red or first gen hybrid stag as they really fight dirty. I have also seen smaller hybrid stags cover hinds but not so often. Some of the Wicklow hybrids are fairly big and often get mistaken for Reds at first inspection but I found these mainly held Red look alike hybrid hinds. There are now and have been for a while hybrids kicking about throughout Dumfries and Galloway and I handled one or two twenty years ago.

 

[Mungo]

In my experience both will happen, I have seen a red stag in the rut holding sika hinds in Inverness-shire and in Wicklow a red stag with sika and hybrid hinds.

I think the reason that it's more often a sika stag covering (young) red hinds is that hybridisation is more likely to occur where the two species do not overlap but are near (so their own species are not readily available to breed with) and, in these circumstances a sika stag is likely to travel further than a red stag. That is certainly the situation here in the North West of England.

The bulk of the genetic evidence is for precisely this: sika stags mating with red hinds in situations where a sika stag has got itself into a more or less isolated area containing reds. Even more specifically, it seems to most often happen where a sika stag has got into a park or paddock with red hinds, or on peninsulas with restricted opportunities for the hinds to get away from the stag.

As an aside: how far East are you aware of sika moving from the Bowland population? what do you make of reports of people seeing them East of the A1?

 

[HonestJohn]

Saw a sika hind run over roadside not far from Lauder last week. Had to stop and check, and yes, it was!

 

[NickJ]

The bulk of the genetic evidence is for precisely this: sika stags mating with red hinds in situations where a sika stag has got itself into a more or less isolated area containing reds. Even more specifically, it seems to most often happen where a sika stag has got into a park or paddock with red hinds, or on peninsulas with restricted opportunities for the hinds to get away from the stag.

As an aside: how far East are you aware of sika moving from the Bowland population? what do you make of reports of people seeing them East of the A1?

In the 125 odd years since the Bowland population started from escapes from Gisburn Park there is very little evidence of them spreading east. This includes the last 20 odd years since I have been involved with the local DMG, indeed they are not found much east of Gisburn at all. It's a bit of a mystery as to why, one group member who knows that bit of West Yorkshire well thinks it might be because there is a couple of large commercial pheasant shoots there which cause too much disturbance but I'm not convinced.

If sika have been seen east of the A1 then they would have almost certainly come from a separate source. There are, of course lots of small collections that are not recorded where it could have escaped from.

 

[NickJ]

Saw a sika hind run over roadside not far from Lauder last week. Had to stop and check, and yes, it was!

In case I caused any confusion I am referring to the Forest of Bowland, which is in Lancashire, not Bowland in Berwickshire

 

[Mungo]

In the 125 odd years since the Bowland population started from escapes from Gisburn Park there is very little evidence of them spreading east. This includes the last 20 odd years since I have been involved with the local DMG, indeed they are not found much east of Gisburn at all. It's a bit of a mystery as to why, one group member who knows that bit of West Yorkshire well thinks it might be because there is a couple of large commercial pheasants shoots there which cause too much disturbance but I'm not convinced.

If sika have been seen east of the A1 then they would have almost certainly come from a separate source. There are, of course lots of small collections that are not recorded where it could have escaped from.

That’s really useful - thank you!

 

[Mungo]

Saw a sika hind run over roadside not far from Lauder last week. Had to stop and check, and yes, it was!

Been there since at least 2019. I saw them out in the open below the woods at the head of Headshaw burn (below Kelphope hill).

Literally over the crest from the range…

 

[HonestJohn]

Been there since at least 2019. I saw them out in the open below the woods at the head of Headshaw burn (below Kelphope hill).

Literally over the crest from the range…

Believe it or not, this was closer to Greenlaw!

 

[Mungo]

Believe it or not, this was closer to Greenlaw!

That is interesting! I was doing bird surveys there in the spring and was wondering…

 

[kingstonandy]

My first question is did you see the stag cover a Sika hind. I've never seen it and generally I think the hind may collapse under the weight. I've seen plenty of Sika stags see off a red or first gen hybrid stag as they really fight dirty. I have also seen smaller hybrid stags cover hinds but not so often. Some of the Wicklow hybrids are fairly big and often get mistaken for Reds at first inspection but I found these mainly held Red look alike hybrid hinds. There are now and have been for a while hybrids kicking about throughout Dumfries and Galloway and I handled one or two twenty years ago.

No, I didn't see any action.

Reds are a rarity on this ground, this was only the second or third I've seen there.