Mannlicher-Schoenauer - is a heavy bolt lift normal?
- Thread starter Scipio
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HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Late to the dance, I know. Have you checked headspace ?
If I ever have issues with my M1903, I usually find cleaning out the recesses for the bolt lugs does the trick. They seem particularly intolerant of any intrusions, including excess lubrication. Keep them clean and dry and all goes well.
You never need more than a thin film of oil on the bolt components - just enough to keep them rust free.
You never need more than a thin film of oil on the bolt components - just enough to keep them rust free.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the best wishes and for the continued input deeangeo
And I actually followed your advice from earlier in the thread, and intially only put on a very thin layer of oil on the outside, sliding surfaces on the bolt, but only there, and nowhere else.
Now it all kind of happened in 3 stages:
A. Initally the cycling of the bolt was pretty smooth post the cleaning, and the flag safety, which had been incredibly tight before the cleaning, almost umoveable, now also moved ok, though not entirely smoothly.
B. Then both those things started firming up again, so i thinly oiled the flagpin saftey and spring, and it was then maybe even smoother that before.
C. It then again started becoming tight and then completely locked itself down. (which is its current status).
So the variable between smooth and non smooth/locked down at the moment could seem to be somehow related to the flag safety, and its condition/operation, as it was super stiff before the clean, (as it is back being now),and it was the only variable touched upon at point B, which had a clear and large effect.
And it is back being super tight and almost umoveable away from it's current safe position, so the problem might somehow be tied into that piece, i speculate.
I do wonder how exactly. - might it be how the bolt cams over the flag safety pin, (the piece inserted into the bolt), or does it need more lubrication, and maybe even gun grease to resolve it?
I dont think there is something mechanically broken of or down entirely, not yet. As how else would the bolt operation and flag safety operation go from stiff and stuck respectively, to smooth and unstuck, then have the intermezzo of being worse then better after the oiling of the flag safety pin and spring, and now being completely stuck? So it is something which can be affected and changed but only for a short time.
I am away from my gunsafe for the next few days, but once i am home i shall of course get back to resolving this. Now I'd rather have been without it of course, but in a way i find it an interesting task to understand and then resolve, and it shall be a pleasure to figure it out, eventually.
as for your 5 questions:
1. Does the rifle also have a side safety? If so naturally that's worth checking too.
- It has a tang safety, which works fine, and normally doesnt lock the bolt either, as i remember
2. Does the stiffness return after firing?
- I havnt fired it yet, post the bolt stripping and cleaning. The problems returned whilst test cycling and dry firing at my house, following the cleaning.
3-4. Do you load your own ammunition? - If so, do you full length re-size your brass & if so, do you resize to fired case headspace dimension?
- I do, but havnt used them yet. I resize the way Eric Cortina councils, so i do use a full length resizing die, but i only bump the shoulder, (of brass fired in my rifle), back 2 thousands, and not back to saami spec.
5.What cartridge/calibre is the rifle? Is it a M1903 6.5x54MS?
-The rifle is a 1970 MS GK Stutzen, chambered in 7x57
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello guys, and thank you for the constructive input
@JonR I am thinking there might be something internal to it it, alright.
Possibly down to how the flag safety pin is conditioned and how it works with the bolts rotation, as the bolt handle is lifted.
Because as i also just explained to Deeangelo, in my posrt to him, that was the only variable to change in the process of it being stuck (flag safety) and stiff (bolt operation) pre cleaning, then smoother (bolt) and ok (safety) post cleaning, then getting worse again, after bolt cycling a bit and dry firing, then better again (after oiling of the flag safety pin and spring), and now being stuck.
But all good ideas and input as to what it might be, and how it can be resolved are most welcome
Hello @HonestJohn , no i havnt, but as i was only dry firing post the cleaning, but it has shot well enough in the past.
Hello @Mr. Gain - Nice rifle!
I did clean them this time, and i do think that too was part of the intial problem, but likely not all of it either, i speculate.However I do think gunk and need of new lubrication might be what is at play with the flag safety pin intially being very stiff, and not stuck, and the bolt the same, as the was the only variable touched between the point A. and C , (as described in my post to deeangelo, some minutes back.)
May i ask how you clean your bolt lugs though, do you take apart the rifle entirely, and then clean them ? And do you use spirits, or even solvents?
I admittedly only used dry cotton swaps this time, as i didnt remove the action and barrel from the stock, and i didnt want to risk bathing the wood in solvents.
Ps. so you just coat all of the components, internally and externally, with a think film og oil, or do you also use gun grease at the back of the bolt lugs, as some suggest? And do you leave the bolt head uncovered by the film of oil? I mean that part will get a lot of heat exposure, after all.
Again all advice is most welcome, and especially from a more experienced MS owner and maintainer than myself
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
To rule out the tang safety causing an interference, I’d take the barrelled action out of the stock, remove the trigger if needed, and disconnect the tang arm lever. This ‘should’ allow you to open the bolt again. I would then try again, but with the BA still out of the stock and tang safety arm disconnected
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the advice @HonestJohn
But would this still be your council, considering that:1. Unlike the flag safety, which was pretty much unmoveable before this operation started, the tang safety has never given me trouble or reason to think it wasnt functioning properly (in solving it's own primary function at least) and
2. that the tang safety doesnt doesnt block the bolt from rotating, (which is what is the current status and problem) ?
At current my main idea is to massage the operation of the flag safety and it's spring, and at the same time try to see if the bolt suddenly doesnt move into a more manouverable state, (this is how i got it back open when it got stuck post cleaning the first time).
If that works, and i can open the bolt, i am going to remove it from the rifle, fully clean it again, and re-oil with a very thin layer, before then inspecting each piece of the bolt, to better understand how each component works during cycling.
Hopefully this will allow me to deduce the cause of this, and with that also the solution. Ah Pazienza!! it shall be figured out and done eventually, and come the end i shall be wiser for it.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
After looking at the picture i took of the dissambeled Bolt, I have a bit more depth to my theory now.
If i am Right in believing that the marked pocket in the flag safety pin (see photo here below) needs to aligned with either the blue or green marked Indentation in the firing pin to rotate itself or allow the bolt to rotate, then a slight failure to be in that pocket, perhaps due to a lack of spring pressure on the flag safety spring, would block rotation of the bolt into opening ,as well as prevent the flag safety from being moved from side to side, would it not?
And those are the two main symptoms at current.
The question is then why the initial cleaning and following oiling of the flag safety pin and spring helped, but only for a short while?
Maybe it eased some resistance on the flag safety spring, and allowed it to work better for a short while, seing it align properly with the rest of the bolt, untill maybe some still not removed gunk built back up during dry firing, and hindered it's operation once more.
Or maybe the blockade of the flag safety pin vs bolt happens further down, on the outer part of the where it rotates during cocking.
But in that case it was would still seem likely that it is some sort of misalignment of the flag safety pin and bolt that his hindering normal operation of both bolt and flag safety.
If i am Right in believing that the marked pocket in the flag safety pin (see photo here below) needs to aligned with either the blue or green marked Indentation in the firing pin to rotate itself or allow the bolt to rotate, then a slight failure to be in that pocket, perhaps due to a lack of spring pressure on the flag safety spring, would block rotation of the bolt into opening ,as well as prevent the flag safety from being moved from side to side, would it not?
And those are the two main symptoms at current.
The question is then why the initial cleaning and following oiling of the flag safety pin and spring helped, but only for a short while?
Maybe it eased some resistance on the flag safety spring, and allowed it to work better for a short while, seing it align properly with the rest of the bolt, untill maybe some still not removed gunk built back up during dry firing, and hindered it's operation once more.
Or maybe the blockade of the flag safety pin vs bolt happens further down, on the outer part of the where it rotates during cocking.
But in that case it was would still seem likely that it is some sort of misalignment of the flag safety pin and bolt that his hindering normal operation of both bolt and flag safety.
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deeangeo
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the best wishes and for the continued input deeangeo
And I actually followed your advice from earlier in the thread, and intially only put on a very thin layer of oil on the outside, sliding surfaces on the bolt, but only there, and nowhere else.
Now it all kind of happened in 3 stages:
A. Initally the cycling of the bolt was pretty smooth post the cleaning, and the flag safety, which had been incredibly tight before the cleaning, almost umoveable, now also moved ok, though not entirely smoothly.
B. Then both those things started firming up again, so i thinly oiled the flagpin saftey and spring, and it was then maybe even smoother that before.
C. It then again started becoming tight and then completely locked itself down. (which is its current status).
So the variable between smooth and non smooth/locked down at the moment could seem to be somehow related to the flag safety, and its condition/operation, as it was super stiff before the clean, (as it is back being now),and it was the only variable touched upon at point B, which had a clear and large effect.
And it is back being super tight and almost umoveable away from it's current safe position, so the problem might somehow be tied into that piece, i speculate.
I do wonder how exactly. - might it be how the bolt cams over the flag safety pin, (the piece inserted into the bolt), or does it need more lubrication, and maybe even gun grease to resolve it?
I dont think there is something mechanically broken of or down entirely, not yet. As how else would the bolt operation and flag safety operation go from stiff and stuck respectively, to smooth and unstuck, then have the intermezzo of being worse then better after the oiling of the flag safety pin and spring, and now being completely stuck? So it is something which can be affected and changed but only for a short time.
I am away from my gunsafe for the next few days, but once i am home i shall of course get back to resolving this. Now I'd rather have been without it of course, but in a way i find it an interesting task to understand and then resolve, and it shall be a pleasure to figure it out, eventually.
as for your 5 questions:
1. Does the rifle also have a side safety? If so naturally that's worth checking too.
- It has a tang safety, which works fine, and normally doesnt lock the bolt either, as i remember
2. Does the stiffness return after firing?
- I havnt fired it yet, post the bolt stripping and cleaning. The problems returned whilst test cycling and dry firing at my house, following the cleaning. Are you certain you have re-assembled the bolt correctly?
3-4. Do you load your own ammunition? - If so, do you full length re-size your brass & if so, do you resize to fired case headspace dimension?
- I do, but havnt used them yet. I resize the way Eric Cortina councils, so i do use a full length resizing die, but i only bump the shoulder, (of brass fired in my rifle), back 2 thousands, and not back to saami spec. Excellent
5.What cartridge/calibre is the rifle? Is it a M1903 6.5x54MS?
-The rifle is a 1970 MS GK Stutzen, chambered in 7x57 OK Great cartridge
Steyr Mannlicher Schönauer Stutzen 7x57
Gute Waffen müssen nicht teuer sein. Das stellt man oft fest, wenn man diverse Modell aus dem Gebrauchtmarkt mit den Neupreisen der großen Marken vergleicht. Waffen haben glücklicherweise die Eigen...
www.geartester.de
Assuming you're certain of your re-assembly of the bolt, especially the depression of the flag safety while rotating the final bolt ring showing the indication groove on it fully vertical, I cannot see any reason for the bolt to malfunction in any way.
These bolts are so simple it's hard to see how anything can go wrong. Maybe the flag safety is bent a little? I cannot think of any other reason for the bolt failing to function correctly consistently.
Maybe the following link can be useful for you - it's a Facebook page with knowledgeable folk Ref MS rifles
www.facebook.com
Is it possible a fragment of the flag safety spring had broken off, or become distorted such that the pin on the safety no longer aligned properly? Otherwise is there a burr (God knows how that translates!) on one of the surfaces which could be relieved by some gentle filing?
I don't have my 1906 MS to hand but wonder whether it is possible to disassemble the bolt in situ enough to get the safety out of the rifle?
I don't have my 1906 MS to hand but wonder whether it is possible to disassemble the bolt in situ enough to get the safety out of the rifle?
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
The end of the flag seems slightly skewed, and the wear marks seem very minor, almost like it’s canning on almost no surfaces
Sorry if I'm a bit behind, but is the present status of the rifle that the bolt is closed and cocked and the safety is stuck on (in the R/H position)?
Is there any fore-and-aft movement in either the safety bar (if you push it forward) or the cocking piece (if you pull it back) which, in combination with some rotational wiggle of the safety flag, might free up the bind? (You have probably tried this already.)
Also, is the bolt handle all the way down?
I've been fiddling with a couple of M1903 bolts this morning, trying to provoke a failure, but I can't get an incorrectly-assembled bolt into the rifle, a correctly-assembled one insists on working properly, and there seems to be no way (as one would expect) to disassemble either the safety or the cocking piece with the bolt closed.
Apthorpe's suggestion that something - probably the spring - has failed in situ therefore seems the most plausible explanation. Similarly, a piece of debris in the channel for the safety bar might do it.
If wiggling fails, I suspect you are going to have to start holding your breath and tapping the safety ever more insistently with a small nylon hammer. Take the action out of the stock and put it securely in a vice before you do this.
Is there any fore-and-aft movement in either the safety bar (if you push it forward) or the cocking piece (if you pull it back) which, in combination with some rotational wiggle of the safety flag, might free up the bind? (You have probably tried this already.)
Also, is the bolt handle all the way down?
I've been fiddling with a couple of M1903 bolts this morning, trying to provoke a failure, but I can't get an incorrectly-assembled bolt into the rifle, a correctly-assembled one insists on working properly, and there seems to be no way (as one would expect) to disassemble either the safety or the cocking piece with the bolt closed.
Apthorpe's suggestion that something - probably the spring - has failed in situ therefore seems the most plausible explanation. Similarly, a piece of debris in the channel for the safety bar might do it.
If wiggling fails, I suspect you are going to have to start holding your breath and tapping the safety ever more insistently with a small nylon hammer. Take the action out of the stock and put it securely in a vice before you do this.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello Deeangelo, and thanks as always for the continued inputIs this the model stutzen you have? (The article may refer to a 6.5x54MS, but in appearance the rifles are similar)Steyr Mannlicher Schönauer Stutzen 7x57
Gute Waffen müssen nicht teuer sein. Das stellt man oft fest, wenn man diverse Modell aus dem Gebrauchtmarkt mit den Neupreisen der großen Marken vergleicht. Waffen haben glücklicherweise die Eigen...
Assuming you're certain of your re-assembly of the bolt, especially the depression of the flag safety while rotating the final bolt ring showing the indication groove on it fully vertical, I cannot see any reason for the bolt to malfunction in any way.
These bolts are so simple it's hard to see how anything can go wrong. Maybe the flag safety is bent a little? I cannot think of any other reason for the bolt failing to function correctly consistently.
Maybe the following link can be useful for you - it's a Facebook page with knowledgeable folk Ref MS rifles
Yes, my stutzen is also a gk 7x57. It has a slightly different scope mounting system to the one in the article, but it otherwise very similar indeed.
Unfortunately i do not have facebook, but if it comes to it, i might have to find a way around that, to ask advice from the FB MS group.
And yes, i am fairly sure i remebered to depress the flag safety upon reassembly. I do think we're on the right track as to the cause, ie something with the flag safety and how it aligns (or currently perhaps misaligns) with the firingpin and/or bolt body, but the cause eludes me. For now.
I shall figure it out, in time.
PS. i do suspect i might be needing a new flag safety spring, - do any of you chaps happen to know where one such spring can be gotten, these days?
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello @Apthorpe and two very good points, which i was wondering/share as well.
When looking at my flagpin safety spring, vs the ones visible in the MS bolt disassembly videos on YT, mine does seems to miss the last turn, doesnt it?
Then again it could also be hidden on the other side of where the photo i uploaded shows it. But yes, when one consideres the sequence of the symptoms observed, i too think the spring and its function might somehow be involved.
Hello @HonestJohn , may i ask exactly what you mean by that ?
Hello @Mr. Gain and thank you for the detailed thoughts on what might be happening. Please allow me to respond point by point to make sure i do not miss anything crucial.
1. The current status is: bolt is decocked, bolt all the way down, flag safety in fire (so all the way to the left) , and that wont rotate either at the moment.
Now interestingly the flag safety pin will rotate when the spring is depressed manually, albeit quite stiffly it has to be said. That again makes me think that we might be talking a spring pressure/expansion problem, given that the pin can function and rotate when the spring is manually depressed but not when the spring is supposed to push the safety pin back up into normal function by itself.
2. Good idea
And it is a yes to both questions. - getting it unstock this way, once i return to my gun safe tomorrow, is exactly my hope and intention, and also how i got it unstuck the first time it started jamming up, post the cleaning. 3. yes
4. If i had to guess, and guessing it is, it is indeed that there is something wrong with the flag safety spring and it's function, and that this is preventing it to sit correctly to allow proper rotation of bolt the bolt/firing pin, as well as of itself (when it is not manually depressed).
The very interesting question is why these symptoms of temporary improvement, followed by getting restuck was observed both after the intial clean, and then again after i oiled the flag safety pin and it's spring.
Might the spring be so weakened, and possibly missing a piece, that the gunk maybe still in there, which might reaccumulate with operation of the bolt, prevents it from pushing the pin back up far enough, thus blocking rotation?
In that case the intial removement of dirt and then oil applied might have allowed the spring to temporarily regain better function, but only until more gunk reaccumulated. But barr the locking cams, the action wasnt that dirty either was my impression, so does that theory hold?
However If that is the case getting the bolt unstock, taking the action out of the stock, giving it a truly thorough clean everywhere possible and then possibly changing the flag safety spring too, might be what it takes to properly fix this. We shall find out.
5. If it comes to using tools, i think i shall let a pro handle it. The problem is just that here in Denmark serious pros, who also has good experience handling MSs are likely very rare, if in existence at all. I might well risk that they break something too.
So i really would rather not start using tools on the gun, or having to give it to a smith who i dont have very good reason to trust has both the skill and experience needed. But let us see if we can not avoid getting to that stage first
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Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello Heym
yes, this is a very valid suggested progression. However please see my point 5 just above.
In fact i had a pretty reknowned danish smith check it over when i bought it, and he didnt notice this at all, which makes me think he, (or possibly one of his lesser experienced employees or trainees who might have done the actual work), didnt check over the rifle all the well, back when they were supposed to.
Because the bolt operation vs how i now understand it is meant to be, was always quite stiff even when i got it, i think. It just got worse recently, leading me to start this thread.
My plan for now is to progress much like Mr. Gain suggests in point 2. I shall however not start to use tools or violent force on the gun. If it comes to that, a suitable professional will have to be found.
Luckily i have other rifles i can use in the meantime, so will not have to try and rush any solution through for the MS.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hey HonestJohn, ah, Now i get ya
Yes, i think it might be the latter, possibly due to the flag safety pin spring not pushing the flag safety into its proper place. My current guess is that it is exactly a camming issue of flagpin safety to the rest of the bolt, possibly caused by it's little spring not working properly I shall give the tip of the flag safety pin another look, when/if i hopefully get it out again.
However it looked alright shapewise as i remember it, when i had it out last. The bottom part is shaped as a half cylinder, lying with its flat belly downwards when on fire i think. When rotated into safe it rotates 180 degrees i'd imagine, and lies oppositely, thus seeing it mechnically somehow block both the release of the firing pin by trigger pull as well as the rotation of the bolt to open.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
If necessary maybe this shop can help me get a replacement flagsafety spring, or even possibly advice to what might be causing the problem, and how to resolve it.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Here below is a picture of the flagpin safety + spring of the YTer who did one of the MS bolt dis and reassembly videos.
Notice that his flag safety spring seems to have half a turn more than mine, (unless mine has it facing the other way), and it definitely looks to be more "coiled out" as well.
The wear/cam marks look quite similar however, perhaps suggesting that this current problem with my bolt hasnt been lasting long enough yet to cause a change of marks with use?
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