Marksmanship Standards

So I was at a range today that shall remain nameless as it's not about the range but the shooters. It is primarily used by stalkers and vermin shooters. I have a pretty miserable view of stalkers shooting abilities generally but after today I have to question the availability of a FAC without a firearms competency test.

The target area is surrounded by a 5'+ square of timber which was peppered with bullet holes. Some very large bullet holes. Not ones that are being shot at bunnies. Fortunately for them, the shooters are nameless but such was the number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else) that these people represent a danger to the rest of us, either physically or that they do something like that out stalking and somebody catches a bullet with the inevitable firearms law review.

Clearly these people don't know (or perhaps care) about bore sighting a rifle and don't know what to do if a shot does not appear on the target.

I hear all the stuff about maintaining our freedoms so no compulsory training, tests etc however after that today I am afraid I have changed my mind. Freedoms only survive if people are responsible enough to make sure they are competent and operate safely. Clearly not everybody is, or cares, and that is the environment where more legislation will appear eventually.

I now am coming to the view that the DSC1 shooting test is inadequate. It should include mounting and zeroing a scope with bore sighting. That is a basic skill. I am also coming the view that if DSC2 is supposed to demonstrate competence then it should include shooting test to a much higher level ie out to 300 yards prone and equivalent off sticks etc. At the moment you can whack a deer at 50 yards and are deemed be fully competent. Eh naw.

Most of you will disagree with me, but you did not see what I did. If someone was shooting like that on a range with me I would be off home quick.

 

[Border]

Keyhole my friend is "shooter speak" for a projectile that is miserably unstable, passing through the target sideways ish, leaving a "Key hole " instead of a circular hole.

I believe "bug holes" or "cloverleafed" was the intended turn of phrase. I thought the same as you....

 

[long_range_rob]

I think that if deepcut wasn’t next door then Bisley would be a housing estate now.

Fortunately the danger area is an SSSI and protected, plus full of grenades, mortar rounds etc from WW1 & 2 training.

 

[Skinny78]

Not with you at all here

I wasnt comparing, I was pointing out the opposites of the two activities and the pointless judgement of comparison.

 

[TringSaint]

 

[JH83]

So is it too much to ask that somebody coming into the sport of deer stalking gets to a proficient standard with there rifle before shooting live quarry.
Strange how people buy a rifle with all the bells and whistles costing thousands of pounds and then belly ache about the cost of ammo, how far it is to a rifle range or what ever the latest excuse is. If you don't have land to sight in your rifle or practice on then using a range it is.
I went to Bisley once a month during the spring summer months when I lived in the UK. Bisley was not exatly close to Chichester. If people want to stalk deer then put in the time to get proficient or get a more suitable hobby.
I have a 100 mtr rifle range in my garden but still drive a hour and a half to shoot the running boar range with my mate. We shoot, drink coffee and talk bollocks putting the world to rights. Perhaps I'm getting to much enjoyment out of my practiceing?

To me personally it would be inconsequential. I have a wee range by my house, DSC1 & 2, various other bits of training blah blah. I’m merely volunteering that I’d rather not be electing to impose further red tape on the shooting community. I sometimes feel that we are turkeys voting for Christmas.

Incidentally most constabulary’s are asking new FAC applicants be be mentored in the first instance anyway, so it’s almost in effect!

 

[TringSaint]

I think that if new applicants join a club to learn the ropes and then move into stalking then that is a good grounding - it’s what I did even though I had a couple of decades of shooting experience.

A bit of range experience means a lot. Learning how much elevation between 100 to 300 to 600 yds is handy when out in the field.

 

[Bowland blades]

I think that if new applicants join a club to learn the ropes and then move into stalking then that is a good grounding - it’s what I did even though I had a couple of decades of shooting experience.

A bit of range experience means a lot. Learning how much elevation between 100 to 300 to 600 yds is handy when out in the field.

Being blunt but trying to be respectful to yourself and other target shooters . Those guys are a nightmare to the stalker and here is a few why bits . BTW i did quite a lot of target shooting in various disciplines at times and have seen some very, very good guys on targets make a total fool of themselves on deer.
1. when you dont get two sighter shots to dial into its a whole lot more important to stick to ranges appropriate
2. If you can shoot 0.25 moa prone at 300 yards on a range prone , how are you shooting off-hand standing
3. remember nobody has cleared the backdrop
4. targets never take a step unexpectedly or spook
5. if you get the wiggles , simply dont take the shot until you are calmed down
6. understand the term "under the bolt" correctly
7. no decent stalker is going to let someone shoot a deer at 600 yards based on target experiance , see 1 above
8. A full time pro stalker of worth will practically always come back with deer without you but he will often come back with nothing with the help of a great target shooter
9. chance of a guest being allowed to shoot to 600 yards are absolutely remote see number 4 that's even when your an acredited dope God
10. if you take to that easy 100 yard test target and fire three perfect shots off hand , off one knee and prone . you will see a big smile on the stalkers face . you are then set for a really great day . You still wont be shooting at any 600 yard deer though
I have had this conversation many times face to face when i was punching paper and ringing steel , the two things are very different . To be fair most stalkers struggle a lot when it comes to punching paper and ringing steel

 

[ejg]

I have had very good experience with target shooters, even pistol shooters when after deer. Had a few target shooters that were way better than myself and felt very comfortable letting the more experienced shoot a longer range deer... not 600yds but more in the 300m region if all else was fine.
As a stalker/deer hunter I think it is our duty to keep the marksmanship standard high by practice, longer range target shooting etc. What I thought was a great day out for many was an invite our range gave out to deer hunters to use their Betsy on a 600yd range. It was to show that even the simplest deer rifle was capable of hitting the target after going through the theory and sight adjustments. It also showed that it is not that easy.

edi

 

[rem284]

I can not understand the thought that a "stalker" will struggle to punch paper or ping steel, and a target shooter will struggle to shoot deer. It's not logical.

I can't remember the last time I shot freehand, so I wouldn't really expect a client to do so, and I certainly would not encourage it. Part of the skill of guiding a client is to assess their ability, give tips to improve marksmanship and try and make them relaxed. This is largely done when "checking their zero at the target". Any chances of deer being shot depends that assessment and the guild has to work within their ability. Again its important to make them feel relaxed and confident

The only times I have formally shot at targets is during an annual skills test my employers insist on. I do zero check when necessary and practice when I feel the need.

 

[baguio]

And how was the OP helpful, educational or an offer of assistance to others? …..it wasn’t, it was an “I’m Billy big balls, everyone else is useless” type post.

There are plenty of people on the SD that pass on knowledge every day in a very helpful and clear manner, there are then those that seem to want to spout about how much they know looking for a pat on the back.

I have met a lot of people from the SD and the ones who know what they are doing have no need to tell everybody how much they know, they simply pass on the knowledge or help others in the background.

Regards,
Gixer

If only you just once offered some advice Gixer. You spend every hour of your life on here. Surely in all your years you must have something to help other people instead of your constant bullying and harassment. I’m living in your head rent free. Please block me and get on with your life. There’s more to life than the SD. You could try deer stalking?

 

[gixer1]

If only you just once offered some advice Gixer. You spend every hour of your life on here. Surely in all your years you must have something to help other people instead of your constant bullying and harassment. I’m living in your head rent free. Please block me and get on with your life. There’s more to life than the SD. You could try deer stalking?

You have way too high an opinion of yourself sir…. I use your posts as an occasional amusement.

And those from the forum that know me will know how comical your comments are…

Keep trying though buddy.

 

[TringSaint]

Being blunt but trying to be respectful to yourself and other target shooters . Those guys are a nightmare to the stalker and here is a few why bits . BTW i did quite a lot of target shooting in various disciplines at times and have seen some very, very good guys on targets make a total fool of themselves on deer.
1. when you dont get two sighter shots to dial into its a whole lot more important to stick to ranges appropriate
2. If you can shoot 0.25 moa prone at 300 yards on a range prone , how are you shooting off-hand standing
3. remember nobody has cleared the backdrop
4. targets never take a step unexpectedly or spook
5. if you get the wiggles , simply dont take the shot until you are calmed down
6. understand the term "under the bolt" correctly
7. no decent stalker is going to let someone shoot a deer at 600 yards based on target experiance , see 1 above
8. A full time pro stalker of worth will practically always come back with deer without you but he will often come back with nothing with the help of a great target shooter
9. chance of a guest being allowed to shoot to 600 yards are absolutely remote see number 4 that's even when your an acredited dope God
10. if you take to that easy 100 yard test target and fire three perfect shots off hand , off one knee and prone . you will see a big smile on the stalkers face . you are then set for a really great day . You still wont be shooting at any 600 yard deer though
I have had this conversation many times face to face when i was punching paper and ringing steel , the two things are very different . To be fair most stalkers struggle a lot when it comes to punching paper and ringing steel

Yup. Very valid points and when I have taken target shooters out hunting they struggle because of the lack of formal structure, ie sandbank, flags, distance markers, etc.
they also tend to take to long to get a shot off and the quarry wanders off.

 

[Bowland blades]

let me make this clear , i am not suggesting in anyway dont shoot deer if your a target shooter - neither am i saying target shooting isn't any good as practice. what i am saying is 1 we should not even consider letting target guys extrapolate 600 yards on paper = 600 on deer . 2 with the possible exception of PRS etc shooting in the field on quarry is shot from various stances and the first shot is generally the only one ( no two sighting shots with one having the option of converting to your score ) we are hoping to get but one chance any after that are a bonus . Ever tried taking standing no aids on a full weight target rifle ?
Deer are very mobile even laid down chewing the cud the head is on a swivel , let alone the chance of the beast taking a step as your pulling the trigger . very rare a target shooter will get a good shot in on his first sighter and decide to convert it and not take the second and in quite a number of years shooting competitively i have never seen a person not take any sighter shot at all
Any practice is good practice but that is what it is , not a licence to stretch distances to double the stalker is saying.

 

[ejg]

Yup. Very valid points and when I have taken target shooters out hunting they struggle because of the lack of formal structure, ie sandbank, flags, distance markers, etc.
they also tend to take to long to get a shot off and the quarry wanders off.

I agree with some target shooting disciplines maybe however take out some of the better PRS shooters, you'll see how quick they can get a shot off that hit's the mark even in wind, longer range and awkward position.
edi

 

[Bowland blades]

I can not understand the thought that a "stalker" will struggle to punch paper or ping steel, and a target shooter will struggle to shoot deer. It's not logical.

I can't remember the last time I shot freehand, so I wouldn't really expect a client to do so, and I certainly would not encourage it. Part of the skill of guiding a client is to assess their ability, give tips to improve marksmanship and try and make them relaxed. This is largely done when "checking their zero at the target". Any chances of deer being shot depends that assessment and the guild has to work within their ability. Again its important to make them feel relaxed and confident

The only times I have formally shot at targets is during an annual skills test my employers insist on. I do zero check when necessary and practice when I feel the need.

straight question here , would you be ok having a new unknown guest shoot to the 600 yards mentioned after seeing a couple of shots at your zero target ( that is most commonly 100 or maybe 200 )?
because that is what is being suggested !
The fact that many of us might well make a good 600 yards , when it doesn't quite work out how we thought ( maybe a bad wind call , maybe an animal taking a step , misreading the wind contour or just plain error - the chances of stopping a run with a follow up when that beast is running is darn near impossible and needs a goodly bit of luck as in ten seconds or less it will be 800 , over a ridge etc
we are not talking a std 100 or 200 yard employers test and we are not talking of known clients of which we have had eyes on many times to attest their skills

 

[TringSaint]

I agree with some target shooting disciplines maybe however take out some of the better PRS shooters, you'll see how quick they can get a shot off that hit's the mark even in wind, longer range and awkward position.
edi

Agree. But most of the guys I shoot with are service rifle or f-class types so speed is not the order of the day!!

 

[User00040]

I agree with some target shooting disciplines maybe however take out some of the better PRS shooters, you'll see how quick they can get a shot off that hit's the mark even in wind, longer range and awkward position.
edi

In the US, many of them used to do that on people so steel targets that don't shoot back, no bother

 

[Lancaster]

I can not understand the thought that a "stalker" will struggle to punch paper or ping steel, and a target shooter will struggle to shoot deer. It's not logical.

I can't remember the last time I shot freehand, so I wouldn't really expect a client to do so, and I certainly would not encourage it. Part of the skill of guiding a client is to assess their ability, give tips to improve marksmanship and try and make them relaxed. This is largely done when "checking their zero at the target". Any chances of deer being shot depends that assessment and the guild has to work within their ability. Again its important to make them feel relaxed and confident

The only times I have formally shot at targets is during an annual skills test my employers insist on. I do zero check when necessary and practice when I feel the need.

Have you never had situations where a guest, who is accomplished on targets, has put three shots into less than 1" at the target before stalking, and then made a complete Horlicks when it comes down to shooting something with a pulse, I know I have,and on several occasions??

 

[MAH]

You don't want to hear it do you? 5' over the top? 4' left

Maybe some folk are misunderstanding your imperial units of measurement e.g. 5' , which is more that 1.5m in new money.

If an ndividual fires a round without knowing where the point of impact will be, I'd agreed that's a type of ND. But maybe not in the classic sense.

I've also seen some worrying things at ranges, one chap with a big bore double rifle, hit the top of the 6m high sand back stop. He was only 50yds from the target. However, I'm lucky, in that the range I use has excellent ROs, and the RO had a wee chst.

Did the range have an RO, conducting the shooting detail?
Did they pick up on the issues that you observed?

M.

 

[rem284]

Have you never had situations where a guest, who is accomplished on targets, has put three shots into less than 1" at the target before stalking, and then made a complete Horlicks when it comes down to shooting something with a pulse, I know I have,and on several occasions??

Yes. However I can normally shoot half to 3/4 inch groups and still cock up, thankfully very rarely.