Maximum Range for Stalking

[Woodsmoke]

It’s what we do. With a cheap and cheerful Howa no less. Whether anyone likes what we do or not is immaterial.

I’ll say this - good on yer @Tulloch.

That was some bloody good shooting! That Billy at 624 was a superb shot, regardless of whether you do it every day or not.

Where I last lived, there was a sloping field in front of my house that ran downhill to a ditch at around 637 yards. I always wanted to have a crack at the deer that would appear at the edge, or even set a gong up. I didn't ever get the opportunity, but I gazed wistfully through my scope a few times . . . .

 

[bogtrotter]

After fourteen pages I have a slightly different perspective to this, I still don't consider it stalking and never will
The original post looked like willy waving and I must admit boiled my p@ss to a degree.
However what boils my P@ss even more is the fact that it was stolen from another platform and reprinted here
without the OPs knowledge and with no chance of defending himself.
it was only by good luck that the original poster is a member here and the post was brought to his attention.
and to his credit he had the balls to admit it was he who was responsible and defended his actions.

Do I agree with him? well thats a difficult question in some aspects yes and in others no!

As i keep saying it's not stalking but then the OP himself says that it was a forestry protection job but that was not
made clear in the original post.
I must admit to being a traditionalist and Highland stalking has traditions going back well over a hundred years
unlike other parts of the UK where there is not much tradition if any what little there may be was introduced to the
UK by service men returning from being stationed in Germany prior to that while deer were shot in the Uk there was
no stalking as such not so in Highland Scotland where tradition dictates the emphases on the approach and getting
as close as possible at least two hundred yards or less, ask anyone who has taken a day or days stalking on a
Highland estate.
As this was originally posted on a Field Sports group I presumed it was traditional stalking I was wrong! It was not.
Much has been made in previous posts on the subject of the difference between professional stalkers and recreational
stalkers that professionals will shoot at long range while the recreational's won't not exactly true by far the greatest
amount of professional stalkers are those employed by Highland estates, you also have those employed by FLS
contractors and those who are freelance with the exception of FLS rangers the large majority of the others are ex
Highland stalkers.
Culling deer in a forestry situation will at times require longer shots being taken than might be taken on the open hill
but not always .
I consider myself a professional having spent my working life employed in the job I also have a foot in both camps
being employed as a hill stalker and also done a fair bit of forestry culling personally I still try to get to within 200
yards when ever possible have stretched that to 300 on occasion but that is my absolute maximum the only time I
will shoot further than that is to stop a wounded beast successfully on a lot of occasions I may add I just don't
feel comfortable doing it.
Some will no doubt say that is due to a lack of skill on my part that may be true ,there are a great many better shots than I am Tulloch for one while I could probably ( though I woudn't) shoot a stag at 420 yards I couldn't neck shoot one.
None of the above is stalking though and a good shot is not necessarily a good stalker and a good stalker does not need to be a good shot though it's advantageous.



Though not Tulloch's intention it looked a lot like bragging maybe a lesson for us all here that something we have innocently
posted can be misconstrued.

No reflection on Tullochs shooting skills but I have seen too many head and neck shots go wrong and although it ended well in this case I don't think it was the best
choice at that distance I believe a high shoulder shot would have been the better choice but I was not there and
Tulloch made the decision he thought was best at the time.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Two separate discussions here
1) ability - 420 is not a long way, it may be if you limit your practice to 200yds though
2) motivation - there are times. Longer shot can be necessary, but we see more and more publicity devoted to long shots on game.

I have watched numerous videos (more lately) of long range hunters taking shots they could have closed the distance on by a considerable margin.
Their chosen challenge is the shot
Not the stalk.

Lately I have been doing a lot of practice with a specific goal in mind.
I want to be able to hit a 6” gong from any position in any condition with the first round. (.308 and also .300nm)
The emphasis on the first round.
Distances to 500-600-700 so far
Similar to the 1min challenge Thomas Haugland shows in his videos.
Most of this is driven by my apparent poor wind reading skills historically and an interest in getting better.

As the confidence and abilities increase so does the desire to stretch them.
I can see how it becomes the norm but the operator has more interest in the spec of their kit than the quarry and the buzz from crawling into 45yds from a group of hinds.

I have recently shot live targets over 400yds as a result of the practice and confidence inspiring results.
But I did so with calibres/bullets that exceeded the perceived energy to negate a wounding.
.308 on crow/rabbit sized targets.
I would be concerned with not only the terminal energy but the Bullet and how it performs at the expected terminal velocity.
My choice would be to have more gun

At range you are effectively shooting them with the equivalent terminal effect of a cartridge/calibre several steps down from the one you pulled the trigger on

 

[Tulloch]

After fourteen pages I have a slightly different perspective to this, I still don't consider it stalking and never will
The original post looked like willy waving and I must admit boiled my p@ss to a degree.
However what boils my P@ss even more is the fact that it was stolen from another platform and reprinted here
without the OPs knowledge and with no chance of defending himself.
it was only by good luck that the original poster is a member here and the post was brought to his attention.
and to his credit he had the balls to admit it was he who was responsible and defended his actions.

Do I agree with him? well thats a difficult question in some aspects yes and in others no!

As i keep saying it's not stalking but then the OP himself says that it was a forestry protection job but that was not
made clear in the original post.
I must admit to being a traditionalist and Highland stalking has traditions going back well over a hundred years
unlike other parts of the UK where there is not much tradition if any what little there may be was introduced to the
UK by service men returning from being stationed in Germany prior to that while deer were shot in the Uk there was
no stalking as such not so in Highland Scotland where tradition dictates the emphases on the approach and getting
as close as possible at least two hundred yards or less, ask anyone who has taken a day or days stalking on a
Highland estate.
As this was originally posted on a Field Sports group I presumed it was traditional stalking I was wrong! It was not.
Much has been made in previous posts on the subject of the difference between professional stalkers and recreational
stalkers that professionals will shoot at long range while the recreational's won't not exactly true by far the greatest
amount of professional stalkers are those employed by Highland estates, you also have those employed by FLS
contractors and those who are freelance with the exception of FLS rangers the large majority of the others are ex
Highland stalkers.
Culling deer in a forestry situation will at times require longer shots being taken than might be taken on the open hill
but not always .
I consider myself a professional having spent my working life employed in the job I also have a foot in both camps
being employed as a hill stalker and also done a fair bit of forestry culling personally I still try to get to within 200
yards when ever possible have stretched that to 300 on occasion but that is my absolute maximum the only time I
will shoot further than that is to stop a wounded beast successfully on a lot of occasions I may add I just don't
feel comfortable doing it.
Some will no doubt say that is due to a lack of skill on my part that may be true ,there are a great many better shots than I am Tulloch for one while I could probably ( though I woudn't) shoot a stag at 420 yards I couldn't neck shoot one.
None of the above is stalking though and a good shot is not necessarily a good stalker and a good stalker does not need to be a good shot though it's advantageous.



Though not Tulloch's intention it looked a lot like bragging maybe a lesson for us all here that something we have innocently
posted can be misconstrued.

No reflection on Tullochs shooting skills but I have seen too many head and neck shots go wrong and although it ended well in this case I don't think it was the best
choice at that distance I believe a high shoulder shot would have been the better choice but I was not there and
Tulloch made the decision he thought was best at the time.

I agree fully 100% , I did not create this post on here. If I had I would have worded it vwry different. On my original post I did not mention anything about how and why the deer was shot and even now I have given some detail I have not mentioned everything, like the fact it was at least a hour of watching this beast just lie there ripping replant out the ground thinking noone could see him, or the fact that I thought of a million ways of what I would need to get him out if shot and waited and waited fornhim to stand up and he never did. I knew how long the extraction would take I knew how dangerous that ground was as had been in there before and I knew I was on my own, also was thinking about how safe it was for my dogs. For me at that moment of time was to take the shot in the largest tarhet area possible and that was the neck, even if the beast turned its head the neck size and posituon would never have chanhe much, and anyone who has ever watched a stag just lying there they can be almost motionless when sitting just chewing for a good few minutes. I never just jumped out the truck put the rifle on the bonnet picked a mil dot and fired, I lay down bag under the but I ranged checked my dope on Kestrel ranged again then dialled 6.5MOA literally no wind and waited and waited checked range again and waited looked around with thermal the waited then took the shot.

I had no intention ever to talk about the shot my OP was about the bullet to an audience that shoots Elk to 700yrds with 6.5 or who uses a bow on Whitetail at 100yrds or shoots hogs at 1000yrds or from a helicopter. 420yrds to them is average shooting.

 

[Tulloch]

Two separate discussions here
1) ability - 420 is not a long way, it may be if you limit your practice to 200yds though
2) motivation - there are times. Longer shot can be necessary, but we see more and more publicity devoted to long shots on game.

I have watched numerous videos (more lately) of long range hunters taking shots they could have closed the distance on by a considerable margin.
Their chosen challenge is the shot
Not the stalk.

Lately I have been doing a lot of practice with a specific goal in mind.
I want to be able to hit a 6” gong from any position in any condition with the first round. (.308 and also .300nm)
The emphasis on the first round.
Distances to 500-600-700 so far
Similar to the 1min challenge Thomas Haugland shows in his videos.
Most of this is driven by my apparent poor wind reading skills historically and an interest in getting better.

As the confidence and abilities increase so does the desire to stretch them.
I can see how it becomes the norm but the operator has more interest in the spec of their kit than the quarry and the buzz from crawling into 45yds from a group of hinds.

I have recently shot live targets over 400yds as a result of the practice and confidence inspiring results.
But I did so with calibres/bullets that exceeded the perceived energy to negate a wounding.
.308 on crow/rabbit sized targets.
I would be concerned with not only the terminal energy but the Bullet and how it performs at the expected terminal velocity.
My choice would be to have more gun

At range you are effectively shooting them with the equivalent terminal effect of a cartridge/calibre several steps down from the one you pulled the trigger on

For your goal sir try PRS training . In 90 seconds you have a possible 5 different positions barriers and 5 different ranges dialling each time.

Guys are regularly shooting elk at 700yrds in the States with 6.5Creedmoor 142gr bullets you dont need much more than that for our biggest quarrie . I know its personal preference . The Prohunters I use are designed for retention on mid range calibres lime the .270 where it lacks on BC it makes up for on retention and is good to arou d 550m is around 601yrds so 420yrds is on the upper limits of the of its capability on killing medium to big game .

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

I would like to get into PRS.
The whole running around in Camo trousers and Hawaiian shirts puts me off slightly!
One day I will make it to one of the weekends they run though.

I have seen plenty of shots with 6.5/7mm 140/160gr bullets at ranges beyond 600/700 and many are extremely emphatic in their terminal effect and speed of kill.
However the rely on a level of precision that I am not sure is reliable. And there are lots of examples online that confirm my suspicion.
Far too many videos of shots on medium sized game that do not involve any CNS disruption that then present a walking, slowly dying target that does not offer a follow up shot due to the range of the initial shot.

For every “great shot” video there are plenty of “**** ups” and probably numerous more that don’t make the upload as they went wrong.
Gunwerks in the US do a lot.
Just yesterday I watched one of theirs.
Three shots, first two were so far off the third can only have been a fluke as there was no pattern to the correction.
Animal died but after a period of time I view as unacceptable.
Too many long shots using a bullet and calibre choice that does not allow for any margin of error.
.270 is an exceptional cartridge and one that despite its popularity in Scotland has been demonstrated to much greater effect and distance on larger game in the US and Africa.
The higher MV and higher BC bullets now available in the 140-145gr range with home loading velocities make it a very capable medium range 6-800yd cartridge
I have a .270 and would never get rid of it.

I still prefer the confidence inspiring energy of a 200gr .30 cal pushing 3000+

 

[Mick9abf]

Two separate discussions here
1) ability - 420 is not a long way, it may be if you limit your practice to 200yds though
2) motivation - there are times. Longer shot can be necessary, but we see more and more publicity devoted to long shots on game.

I have watched numerous videos (more lately) of long range hunters taking shots they could have closed the distance on by a considerable margin.
Their chosen challenge is the shot
Not the stalk.

Lately I have been doing a lot of practice with a specific goal in mind.
I want to be able to hit a 6” gong from any position in any condition with the first round. (.308 and also .300nm)
The emphasis on the first round.
Distances to 500-600-700 so far
Similar to the 1min challenge Thomas Haugland shows in his videos.
Most of this is driven by my apparent poor wind reading skills historically and an interest in getting better.

As the confidence and abilities increase so does the desire to stretch them.
I can see how it becomes the norm but the operator has more interest in the spec of their kit than the quarry and the buzz from crawling into 45yds from a group of hinds.

I have recently shot live targets over 400yds as a result of the practice and confidence inspiring results.
But I did so with calibres/bullets that exceeded the perceived energy to negate a wounding.
.308 on crow/rabbit sized targets.
I would be concerned with not only the terminal energy but the Bullet and how it performs at the expected terminal velocity.
My choice would be to have more gun

At range you are effectively shooting them with the equivalent terminal effect of a cartridge/calibre several steps down from the one you pulled the trigger on

Nail on head, once you know the characteristics of your ammunition the elevation is an almost constant so really even 1st shot hits on a huns head at 600m aren’t all that difficult with practice and modern optics.

Reading the wind correctly is the most challenging part, as I said in a previous post the changing topography and of course lack of choice of your firing point when stalking tends to make it more difficult that lying on a nice firing point on a range you go to often.

At longer ranges I’m happy as long as I know the result will be a humane expiry.

There’s people that wouldn’t take a long shot on a deer but would on a fox and I’m not going to go into peoples views on this, personally I have the opposite approach as I’d rather explain missing or mucking up a shot on a deer than one a fox where I shoot.

 

[Mike L]

I think a trip across to Orion is on the cards after lockdown!

 

[foxhunter]

Dodgyknees sums it up perfectly

 

[sikamalc]

No it has not. No one has been rude. Different views from different perspectives. Freedom of speech decently exercised.

Rattling my cage again

 

[Automan]

Surely part of the enjoyment of deer stalking is the actual stalking I get a real thrill out of getting with in one fifty to one hundred yards with out being spotted some times that's not the case and all you see is the arse end dissappear over the hills but when you do it is a fantastic feeling.
For me two hundred and fifty yards off a bipod in good conditions is my limit.

 

[Tulloch]

Surely part of the enjoyment of deer stalking is the actual stalking I get a real thrill out of getting with in one fifty to one hundred yards with out being spotted some times that's not the case and all you see is the arse end dissappear over the hills but when you do it is a fantastic feeling.
For me two hundred and fifty yards off a bipod in good conditions is my limit.

When I took the shot I was not stalking,

 

[Tulloch]

I would like to get into PRS.
The whole running around in Camo trousers and Hawaiian shirts puts me off slightly!
One day I will make it to one of the weekends they run though.

I know you like your Your Youtube stuff , have a look at the American Precision Rifle Series a couple of my mates compete in , I had the privilage to go over a couple of years ago and compete in their Pro Am tournament and I actually done quite well. It would really open many people eyes.

The PRL seems to be making good numbers now, think it is still lacking serious sponsorship though, Tiff is your man for that.

 

[Stalker62]

Rattling my cage again

No Malc, just making sure it is still locked...

 

[slider]

Surely part of the enjoyment of deer stalking is the actual stalking I get a real thrill out of getting with in one fifty to one hundred yards with out being spotted some times that's not the case and all you see is the arse end dissappear over the hills but when you do it is a fantastic feeling.
For me two hundred and fifty yards off a bipod in good conditions is my limit.

Stalking and the enjoyment is irrelevant if you you are doing a job and not doing it for recreation.

I would go as far to say that shooting for crop protection is far more ethical than shooting as a hobby.

 

[Automan]

Stalking and the enjoyment is irrelevant if you you are doing a job and not doing it for recreation.

I would go as far to say that shooting for crop protection is far more ethical than shooting as a hobby.

Mine is purely recreational

 

[slider]

Mine is purely recreational

And good luck to you, but please remember that the majority of recreational stalkers only get the opportunity because there is a need for deer numbers to be controlled

 

[sikamalc]

No Malc, just making sure it is still locked...

Don't worry I have all the keys joking of course before someone else sticks their nose in.

 

[DavyG]

That is outstanding shooting, Dave.
Kind regards,
Carl

I shoot deer @ 1000 yds (+) every day. The moment is someone spoiled when the missus thumps me in the ribs, complaining as to why I’m talking in my sleep...

 

[User00033]

For every “great shot” video there are plenty of “**** ups” and probably numerous more that don’t make the upload as they went wrong.

This grates my goolies a bit, Ed. It implies that everyone engaged in medium range shooting (like me) is dishonest, and that we are grossly misrepresenting the reality of what we do by posting only the successes, which “probably” are only a fraction of the animals actually hit. This kind of comment is common, it’s said in as many words in this thread alone three or four times. The assumption is cynical, pessimistic and baseless, I mean how would you know?

Now a thick skin means I’ll not be too fussed, and I’ll put it down to the usual distrust of stuff outside the collective comfort zone. But nonetheless, it’s worth pointing out. I reckon you’ll be a pretty good shot, that you’ll know your stuff. So when you come and visit and we’re up on the spur looking down on fifty pest goats, you mean to say you’ll just sit there while we knock them over? Have I got that right?