Minimum training standard??

[Bandit Country]

The whole thing is just wrong. We give away our civil liberties at every turn.

+1
"The Scottish Government has challenged the deer sector to increase significantly the voluntary uptake of deer qualifications..." surely begs the question, why? Is there a problem with stalking in Scotland? A high incidence of badly shot deer? Dodgy meat going in to the food chain? My own recollection of anything 'bad' about Scottish deer stalking in recent years involved herding them about with helicopters ....... of course, that might be stage two of the grand plan. Increasing uptake of rotary wing qualifications?

 

[Shabz]

+1
"The Scottish Government has challenged the deer sector to increase significantly the voluntary uptake of deer qualifications..." surely begs the question, why? Is there a problem with stalking in Scotland? A high incidence of badly shot deer? Dodgy meat going in to the food chain? My own recollection of anything 'bad' about Scottish deer stalking in recent years involved herding them about with helicopters ....... of course, that might be stage two of the grand plan. Increasing uptake of rotary wing qualifications?

Couldn't agree more!

I'm quite concerned about what the people who supposedly represent us are saying too. Since they will be the people who will be providing said training, how do we know that they have our best interests at heart?? It's all well and good to say that 'we'll make training available in remote areas' but at what cost? I'm a tree surgeon, I'll come and cut your tree down in downtown basra, but my god it'll cost you!

I think that is what has riled me so much about this whole thing. If SNH wanted to pay for us all to go to a college and 'learn' to shoot deer for a week so that deer in Scotland will be treated in a better way (how much better than it already is must be down to their course) then I'd be all up for it but this is just going to put people off ever wanting to get involved.

 

[kennyc]

Couldn't agree more!

I'm quite concerned about what the people who supposedly represent us are saying too. Since they will be the people who will be providing said training, how do we know that they have our best interests at heart?? It's all well and good to say that 'we'll make training available in remote areas' but at what cost? I'm a tree surgeon, I'll come and cut your tree down in downtown basra, but my god it'll cost you!

I think that is what has riled me so much about this whole thing. If SNH wanted to pay for us all to go to a college and 'learn' to shoot deer for a week so that deer in Scotland will be treated in a better way (how much better than it already is must be down to their course) then I'd be all up for it but this is just going to put people off ever wanting to get involved.

got it in one!

 

[caorach]

There may be a way to let some light leak into this dark corner.

Who, in Scotland, do I send a FOI request to in order that I might get the following information?

Please provide the information relating to the following for the period of the previous 5 years:

1) Number of people killed by firearms while the firearms were being used by deer stalkers for the purpose of shooting deer.
2) Number of people killed by food poisoning, or other illness related to the manner in which the meat was handled by the deer stalker, through eating wild venison which was shot in Scotland.
3) The number of CONFIRMED cases of animal welfare issues concerning deer that were shown to have been caused by stalking or stalkers.

If they can't provide detailed figures to answer these questions then, clearly, there is no supporting evidence for any further restrictions on, or limitations of the freedoms of, stalkers. I am only interested in the "killed" figures as bodies are easy to count whereas other metrics are subject to manipulation, to say the least. If they can provide these figures then I will put them up here when we get a reply and we can see if this clarifies the situation.

 

[Glen Cadwallader]

Caorach,

I think you will find the answer to all 3 of youre questions is zero!

SNH, each of the Scottish Police forces, Enviromental Health and the Health Boards would be good places to start with Duplicate FOI requests.

 

[bogtrotter]

+1
"The Scottish Government has challenged the deer sector to increase significantly the voluntary uptake of deer qualifications..."

At the instigation of SNH which surprise surprise is a government body.

 

[Virbius]

+1
"The Scottish Government has challenged the deer sector to increase significantly the voluntary uptake of deer qualifications..."

At the instigation of SNH which surprise surprise is a government body.

A voluntary uptake of deer qualifications will show that the shooting community are willing to adapt and change - it can only benefit the long term survival of our sport. If as as sporting community we belligerently refuse to change, then we deserve whatever compulsory qualifications may be imposed on us.

 

[Si]

It would be impossible to enforce anyway... Imagine you own a remote Scottish farm. Who's going to come on to you're land and check you have you're dsc1 as you merrily load up the Landy with hinds!!

Too true... you can spend a weekend in the forest and never see another soul the whole time. Who'd even knew you were there and what are the chances of a ranger dropping by?

 

[Paul at Fechan]

enforced qualifications is a bit of an arse as an idea but then it's not going to be enforced as it technically wouldn't have to be. Every new certificate issued could be conditioned to meet the requirements of any new law and in this case, if a hunter has no such deer relevent qualification then deer will not be open on their certificate and similarly you wouldn't automatically have your 'good reason' to apply for a deer legal rifle without first being qualified.

They are quite clever, but not in a good way for the hunting community. The game they are playing suggests they want tightly structured control over most of the deer management here in Scotland and if I was in charge and wanted to have a tighter control of all those deer capable rifle hunters who might hunt deer then the smartest way is to enforce qualifications and do it by stealth rather that complicated legislation that could be seen to infringe our human rights. They are pushing cull return at the moment for last season, I've had a letter telling me I hadn't submitted last seasons returns even though I only got my F&C and out of season with night this may!!!

Paranoid?

 

[Shabz]

A voluntary uptake of deer qualifications will show that the shooting community are willing to adapt and change - it can only benefit the long term survival of our sport. If as as sporting community we belligerently refuse to change, then we deserve whatever compulsory qualifications may be imposed on us.

I would tend to agree if there is something wrong with how it works now?? As a newcomer to the sport, It's fairly quickly apparent that you need dsc1 as a minimum to be able to find yourself any kind of stalking lease. It seems to me that the main people to suffer from this are the ones that want to shoot their own deer on their own land! Mental!

What reasons have they given to try and enforce this?? Am I vastly undereducated about the plight of Scottish deer?? Do we have welfare issues? Every single person that I've encountered since I've been interested in deer management seems (to me) to have been sensible, ethical and practical. Have I just been lucky??

 

[Shabz]

enforced qualifications is a bit of an arse as an idea but then it's not going to be enforced as it technically wouldn't have to be. Every new certificate issued could be conditioned to meet the requirements of any new law and in this case, if a hunter has no such deer relevent qualification then deer will not be open on their certificate and similarly you wouldn't automatically have your 'good reason' to apply for a deer legal rifle without first being qualified.

They are quite clever, but not in a good way for the hunting community. The game they are playing suggests they want tightly structured control over most of the deer management here in Scotland and if I was in charge and wanted to have a tighter control of all those deer capable rifle hunters who might hunt deer then the smartest way is to enforce qualifications and do it by stealth rather that complicated legislation that could be seen to infringe our human rights. They are pushing cull return at the moment for last season, I've had a letter telling me I hadn't submitted last seasons returns even though I only got my F&C and out of season with night this may!!!

Paranoid?

I think you may be quite right there Paul. And our 'representatives' aren't going to fight it much, since it'll be them that design and deliver the training.

 

[caorach]

Right, well I have submitted a FOI request along the lines detailed above to SNH in the first instance.

It may take some time to get a reply.

 

[Shabz]

Legally, a FOI has to be answered within 24hrs. But it'll be 'thank you for your request, we'll be with you shortly'.

 

[bogtrotter]

Now I may be completely paranoid, and it may have no relevance, but.

Glen Cadwallader says that most visitors to Scotland would be accompanied and as such would not be affected by the changes which is true.

Scotland has always been a popular destination for visiting sportsmen, Roe stalking in particular has been very popular with Belgians, in fact a great many Belgians who first came to Scotland on accompanied stalks have taken on leases both forestry and private estates, often forming syndicates, A making it more affordable for an individual
and B if you have a large number in a syndicate two or three can come at a time that way there will be someone on the lease through out a large part of the season making both affordable and productive.

How many are aware that BASC and HVV the Belgian hunting organisation similar to BASC had talks five or six years ago.

To cut a long story short the outcome of these talks were that despite Belgium having a pretty strict hunting test, HVV was granted a concession to run DMQs in Belgium, so far there has been quite a large uptake among Belgians who hunt in Scotland seems that a large majority who come here have level 1 not so many have level 2
but thats not dissimilar to , here and its early days for them.

Lets be clear I have no problem with Belgians or any other Nationality taking leases, I also have no problem with them doing DMQ

My point is HVV have done this to protect their members interests in this country, they have been doing DMQs for at least five years , which is before we heard of any likely change, this is where I am maybe being paranoid but am I the only one that thinks maybe they were tipped of that change was likely to be coming.


I am no longer a member of BASC but maybe those who are can answer has this allegiance with HVV been mentioned, if not why not? seems to be rather secretive, have seen nothing of it in any of the shooting press
and only know of it through other dealings with HVV

 

[caorach]

Legally, a FOI has to be answered within 24hrs. But it'll be 'thank you for your request, we'll be with you shortly'.

I think it is 20 working days in Scotland and my understanding is that in Scotland there is no possibility of an extension to this time but I may be wrong.

 

[Bandit Country]

A voluntary uptake of deer qualifications will show that the shooting community are willing to adapt and change - it can only benefit the long term survival of our sport. If as as sporting community we belligerently refuse to change, then we deserve whatever compulsory qualifications may be imposed on us.

I wasn't aware that "we belligerently refuse to change" - where did that come from? Perhaps you could explain why the shooting community has to show it is willing to adapt and change. I would have thought that the changes to animal welfare and firearms legislation, from 1968 onwards, clearly demonstrates our community can adapt and change - in some cases we have been the drivers of change. It seems that you are happy for the "Scottish Government to challenge the deer sector ...." (presumably in a non-belligerent, all inclusive, non-judgmental, eco-friendly kinda way?), but when the shooting community questions the Scottish Government's reasoning or motives, that's just downright 'belligerent'? That looks like democracy turned upside down.

 

[Virbius]

I wasn't aware that "we belligerently refuse to change" - where did that come from? Perhaps you could explain why the shooting community has to show it is willing to adapt and change. I would have thought that the changes to animal welfare and firearms legislation, from 1968 onwards, clearly demonstrates our community can adapt and change - in some cases we have been the drivers of change. It seems that you are happy for the "Scottish Government to challenge the deer sector ...." (presumably in a non-belligerent, all inclusive, non-judgmental, eco-friendly kinda way?), but when the shooting community questions the Scottish Government's reasoning or motives, that's just downright 'belligerent'? That looks like democracy turned upside down.

First BC, my comments were an opinion and observation and were certainly not aimed at any poster in particular.

Some or the comments and threads on forums and articles and letters in shooting publications are certainly belligerent and self-righteous. Just look at some of the threads regarding Firearms Licensing Officers - do you really think that denegrating FLOs at any opportunity is helping our case? In my opinion, it only can only contribute to making firearms applications and variations more difficult and alienating and distancing people from shooters. I believe the same could be argued for qualifications.

I detest state interferrence, the patronising way in which the state sometimes insist on telling us what to do and change for the sake of change. But shooting can be a highly emotive issue and will always be subject to conflict. In my opinion dealing with conflict of this nature should be done in a harmonious and collaborative way rather than challenging. Hence why a voluntary take up of stalking qualifications in my opinion demonstrates that the stalking community is prepared to adapt in order to placate those who do not share our passion for the sport.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Well, to be fair Vibs, the direction the powers that be are taking is basically to bring us more inline with Europe, these changes are a work in progress and should not be seen as either personal or in any way working against us. IMO, in the long term it will broadly benefit the industry and the recreational side of deer stalking together with hunting tourism.

The qualifications side of things without question makes the general deer stalking community better trained and potentially better regulated through SNH's drive towards cull reporting here in Scotland etc. While yes, it will be a pain for many, the benefits this brings through clear reporting of cull data and so the spread or reduction of deer species in Scotland can only be a positive change.

Change is just part of going forward and while it may be difficult and treated with resentment by some it is often just better to go with it because after all if you were given the choice of getting qualified and registered or give up stalking what would it be? Just shrug off any resentment and go with it. Life's too short for such trivial things.

 

[Virbius]

Well put p at b, a bit of give and take can be very productive.

 

[Si]

Change is just part of going forward and while it may be difficult and treated with resentment by some it is often just better to go with it because after all if you were given the choice of getting qualified and registered or give up stalking what would it be? Just shrug off any resentment and go with it. Life's too short for such trivial things.

And what happens to the stalkers who are already on a shoestring budget?... £250 for DSC1 + all the training aids, DVD's and manuals, fuel to get to the venue and 2 days off work (unpaid) + accomodation, then there's DSC2... same again + 3 witnessed stalks.
If these tests become mandatory, no doubt the prices will take a hike

Is it to become a rich man's game?