I have had one ND and it scared the bejesus out of me. Last crawl into a Sika stag about 150m away one very cold morning, wearing lots of kit and gloves. Got to the firing point, loaded up and was ready to fire when I saw the line of the barrel meant the bullet was going to strike a mound about 1m in front of me. I went to crawl forward another 1m to the new firing point to clear the obstruction and the rifle went off half way there. In the heat of the moment I can't of put the safety catch back on and the trigger was either caught by something on the ground or my gloved fingers gave it a tug. That was 20 years ago. Still think of it every time I line up on a Sika.
New Forest Negligent Discharge
- Thread starter tomblincoe
- Start date
Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that
Thanks, that's a useful response to remember.
In South Africa, was handed a pump shotgun just taken from the cabinet, habit made me check the chamber, it was loaded.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Poor lad, hope he has recovered with no long-term ill effects. You might be interested to know that MPMW is now a C19 testing and phlebotomy centre (I had to look it up too!). I was there for a blood test recently - first time I have ever had bloods taken through the car window! Interesting!!
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
As acknowledged by all, a ND is always there waiting for you and can happen anytime you own a firearm, not just in the field as plenty of holes in ceilings/floors can attest to.
We all have personal experiences which but for luck/good fortune or whatever could have had dreadful consequences for someone. Over my own many years of shooting I have had a hole blown in the ground perhaps 12 inches in front of my right foot by a pal who was carrying his shotgun in the crook of his arm; witnessed a guy climbing a “locked” gate with a fully loaded 12 bore, the gate was not only not locked but was secured at both ends by bits of baler twine - needless to say the gate started to topple when he was astride it. You would be very surprised to see, in very slow motion, just how long it takes a gun to fall, hit butt first and discharge both barrels perhaps 30 feet from you; had a clay pigeon shooter with a semi auto malfunction turn through 180 degrees sweeping the still loaded shotgun across perhaps thirty guys; been in the middle of a “right and left” when a woodcock flushed back after the first shot, again that large figure eight passing through your line of vision ten yards away and at head height is one I will never forget, nor will he, as I left him lying in the heather with a very sore chin; been pickled by No. 6 shot by someone who really should have known better; lost count of the number of times “holes” have magically appeared in benches, ceilings and floors after pistol shooting has stopped; had my good pal and firearms dealer testify at an inquest when a young lad shot himself under the chin with his dad’s 22 rifle whilst climbing a stile. How many more examples do you need?
The old maxim of never pointing your gun at something you do not want to kill is as valid now as it was when I first heard it nearly 50 years ago. My own practice from the day I started is when out with alone or anyone “Unload and Prove Safe” to them before and after a vehicle entrance/exit, climbing a fence, crossing a ditch etc. When with a stalker I clearly demonstrate mag and bolt removal and show/tell them each and every time - WITHOUT FAIL! Upon loading I tell them “Cocked and Locked” and look for an acknowledgement that they have heard. This all takes seconds but could save a life.
Just like a surgeon, shooters may well end up burying their mistakes! Nuff said.
We all have personal experiences which but for luck/good fortune or whatever could have had dreadful consequences for someone. Over my own many years of shooting I have had a hole blown in the ground perhaps 12 inches in front of my right foot by a pal who was carrying his shotgun in the crook of his arm; witnessed a guy climbing a “locked” gate with a fully loaded 12 bore, the gate was not only not locked but was secured at both ends by bits of baler twine - needless to say the gate started to topple when he was astride it. You would be very surprised to see, in very slow motion, just how long it takes a gun to fall, hit butt first and discharge both barrels perhaps 30 feet from you; had a clay pigeon shooter with a semi auto malfunction turn through 180 degrees sweeping the still loaded shotgun across perhaps thirty guys; been in the middle of a “right and left” when a woodcock flushed back after the first shot, again that large figure eight passing through your line of vision ten yards away and at head height is one I will never forget, nor will he, as I left him lying in the heather with a very sore chin; been pickled by No. 6 shot by someone who really should have known better; lost count of the number of times “holes” have magically appeared in benches, ceilings and floors after pistol shooting has stopped; had my good pal and firearms dealer testify at an inquest when a young lad shot himself under the chin with his dad’s 22 rifle whilst climbing a stile. How many more examples do you need?
The old maxim of never pointing your gun at something you do not want to kill is as valid now as it was when I first heard it nearly 50 years ago. My own practice from the day I started is when out with alone or anyone “Unload and Prove Safe” to them before and after a vehicle entrance/exit, climbing a fence, crossing a ditch etc. When with a stalker I clearly demonstrate mag and bolt removal and show/tell them each and every time - WITHOUT FAIL! Upon loading I tell them “Cocked and Locked” and look for an acknowledgement that they have heard. This all takes seconds but could save a life.
Just like a surgeon, shooters may well end up burying their mistakes! Nuff said.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I'd actually completely disagree with some of the above comment , don't use grid ref and use w3w instead.
Goes against wot most +F trainers would tell u.
If u have to turn an app on to get w3w why not just use an app for grid ref, mountain rescue services will just convert to it anyway.
Far more risk of misspelling sword, and even the time it takes to spell every word phonetically compared to 6 simple numbers.
Esp when getting the grid ref off an app, little room for operator error even if they can't read a map.
Plus that grid ref app will likely have altitude or a compass, not essential for stalking but mibbee handy for working out wind direction on new ground
As said a ND is just waiting for you, sometimes without you appreciating all the risks.
I have a Z-aim pro rifle sling and did not like the third strap round the stock as it made gripping and firing the rifle uncomfortable so thought it was a good idea to but it through the trigger guard, after all gravity kept it well away from the trigger when carrying the rifle and for the type of shooting I use the .17mach2 on I never carry the gun with a round chambered.
So thought it a good idea.
All was good for quite sometime then when zeroing one day, when pulling the rifle from the gun slip I must have slid the sling “rope” towards the trigger where it disengaged the sear. I sat the rifle on the gun rest, inserted the magazine, took aim and cycled the bolt and the gun immediately fired thankfully it was pointing down range at the target. But lesson learnt, now the sling is back round the stock.
I have a Z-aim pro rifle sling and did not like the third strap round the stock as it made gripping and firing the rifle uncomfortable so thought it was a good idea to but it through the trigger guard, after all gravity kept it well away from the trigger when carrying the rifle and for the type of shooting I use the .17mach2 on I never carry the gun with a round chambered.
So thought it a good idea.
All was good for quite sometime then when zeroing one day, when pulling the rifle from the gun slip I must have slid the sling “rope” towards the trigger where it disengaged the sear. I sat the rifle on the gun rest, inserted the magazine, took aim and cycled the bolt and the gun immediately fired thankfully it was pointing down range at the target. But lesson learnt, now the sling is back round the stock.
Took a newbie to africa last Jan , day 1 he put a .300 winmag with one up the spout in the rack in the lodge ... day 2 shooting some cans with a 9mm pistol turns round to talk to us holding the pistol ... still get cold sweats thinking about it now..
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Aluminium doesn't rust but the clag on the inner trim panel and inside the door will mess your health up. "Nurse Nurse" fresh clags please.
Jon P
Well-Known Member
Never had a ND with a rifle or shotgun, I have had with my 2shot .32 Walter PP pistol though, after digging a fox and dispatching it, went to unload the second round with wet cold hands, pistol went off, luckily I had pointed it to the ground, but made me and a few with me jump out of our skins.
No , not until you posted it mate !!!!!!lol
Ronin
Distinguished Member
Didn’t make the press ,,,,
Does that matter ?
Gamekeeper firearms suicide on a Royal Estate didn’t make the press either
Interesting point about Blasers - I know of three people who take out clients who will not entertain anyone with one
The transition to safe from unsafe often results in the user (who at this point forgets any instructions from the operating manual) places their finger inside the trigger guard
The result of the effort required to de cock invariably causes involuntary grip and discharge of the weapon
I’ve had a client have an ND with me getting a rifle (not a Blaser) out of a bag - the bullet struck a meter from my foot
He didn’t come back
Does that matter ?
Gamekeeper firearms suicide on a Royal Estate didn’t make the press either
Interesting point about Blasers - I know of three people who take out clients who will not entertain anyone with one
The transition to safe from unsafe often results in the user (who at this point forgets any instructions from the operating manual) places their finger inside the trigger guard
The result of the effort required to de cock invariably causes involuntary grip and discharge of the weapon
I’ve had a client have an ND with me getting a rifle (not a Blaser) out of a bag - the bullet struck a meter from my foot
He didn’t come back
Limpet
Well-Known Member
Far too may ND incidents on this thread. A big reminder to all.
I have my own reminder ( from before I was born) from a relative who owned a gunshop in Africa back in the day. A fella came in showing him how his pistol didn't work anymore and pulled the trigger multiple times to show him. My relative instantly pushed his hand up forcing the client to be pointing the pistol at the ceiling whilst saying "stop" ...... you guessed it - Bang.
I have my own reminder ( from before I was born) from a relative who owned a gunshop in Africa back in the day. A fella came in showing him how his pistol didn't work anymore and pulled the trigger multiple times to show him. My relative instantly pushed his hand up forcing the client to be pointing the pistol at the ceiling whilst saying "stop" ...... you guessed it - Bang.
Yes, the additional hole to let in water won't be noticed.
Something which has always stuck with me since my first (basic) firearms course some 40 years ago...
Always “prove” your weapon before:
You pick it up, hand it to or take it from ANY person.
DG
On a trip, 2 canoes 1 person with a shotgun, 1 guide 2 observers. Person with shotgun wanting to shoot a beaver. Myself and another person just paddling in the second canoe to observe. As we got ready the guide gets the shotgun ready. I think it was a pump action and I did say "you've put a round in the chamber". He just dismissed my comment. After a while paddling, suddenly there was a shot. We looked at the other canoe thinking they have a beaver. We seen the shooter pulling a piece of string. My first thought was, how did they manage to get a string onto the beaver. Ah but! It was not a beaver that came out of the water, it was the shotgun. I asked what happened and the shooter said "he said try the trigger, i did but didn't think it was loaded so didn't have a proper hold of it and it shot out of my hands". The guide said he had lost a shotgun like this before hence the string. After the we observed from a greater distance
I don’t take clients out too often and certainly not as much as I used to in past years. But, I have witnessed 2 ND, one was on the back of a land rover while out after bunnies. Me as the guide and lamper on one side and the client on the other with his shotgun. Usual set-up, drive at a steady pace into the various paddocks and fields I lamp and indicate safe shot, client shoots and end of the night go around and pick up. All going well, very cold night so stop midway around for a coffee break. Ask client if his 5 shot semi-auto 12g is empty, he says yes, he leans it against back of cab, jumps off the back of the buck and steps away, gun slides down hits the deck and discharges straight through the back of the cab and into the passenger seat that the young guy who opens the gates had been sitting in a matter of a few seconds earlier. After that incident I insisted on anyone using a semi-auto must use a safety flag.
The second one was after an exciting deer stalking morning with a very experienced client who had just shot his life’s best buck after stalking it for 3hrs and he was buzzing, as I always do, I asked the client to remove the Mag, open the bolt and check it’s empty before putting the gun into the case on the back seat. He removes the Mag, opens the bolt and checks its empty, closes the bolt, slips the gun into the case and gun discharges straight through the case and fortunately through the open doorway into the ground about 80yrds away. after a few seconds of complete confusion and disbelief I take the gun out of the slip to find that without even thinking (muscle memory I guess), after checking it was empty the client had popped the Mag back in before closing the bolt so had paced the gun loaded and with the safety off pushed into the case. I have since made the decision that the gun has to be opened, emptied and checked by me or in front of me before it goes in the vehicle. Scary thing is that there have been several times when a client has been about to put the Mag back in before closing the bolt and I have had to step in to point out the error. It Makes me wonder how many times it had happened before I discovered the issue.
best advice.....when you think it’s empty, check again Just in case.
The second one was after an exciting deer stalking morning with a very experienced client who had just shot his life’s best buck after stalking it for 3hrs and he was buzzing, as I always do, I asked the client to remove the Mag, open the bolt and check it’s empty before putting the gun into the case on the back seat. He removes the Mag, opens the bolt and checks its empty, closes the bolt, slips the gun into the case and gun discharges straight through the case and fortunately through the open doorway into the ground about 80yrds away. after a few seconds of complete confusion and disbelief I take the gun out of the slip to find that without even thinking (muscle memory I guess), after checking it was empty the client had popped the Mag back in before closing the bolt so had paced the gun loaded and with the safety off pushed into the case. I have since made the decision that the gun has to be opened, emptied and checked by me or in front of me before it goes in the vehicle. Scary thing is that there have been several times when a client has been about to put the Mag back in before closing the bolt and I have had to step in to point out the error. It Makes me wonder how many times it had happened before I discovered the issue.
best advice.....when you think it’s empty, check again Just in case.
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fallowfellow
Well-Known Member
Great response on your part!
Similar story from me. Clearing up voice command receivers after down the line shooting was finished, turned round to find someone on stand 5 practising mounting their gun out over me. Very experience guy, sensible chap and I was quite young so I said nothing but I moved off rapidly doing the ones further down the line and out of his way. He finished as I was walking back behind the stands, opened his gun and found he had one cartridge still in there. He went pale. We both understood the gravity of the error. I wouldn't hesitate to be more vocal now.
I'll use your line in future should it be required!
Of interest, I believe the military drill is to clear the rifle then fire weapon into a safe spot decocking it and eliminating the possibility of forgotten round hitting someone.
Firing off the "empty" action sounds like it would prevent many of these NDs, do many folk do that on here? I know it's a bit different with bolt action and I tend to just take the bolt out and holster it. I have adopted the process for a single shot break barrel rifle though.
I find these threads are useful for examining my own practice. "Some people learn from their mistakes, I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others' - possibly Bismark, quite liklely someone else. If only I applied that maxim to all aspects of life!
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