Nosler Partitions And Ballistic Tips....misunderstood?

[captdavid]

Are Partitions misunderstood? I know for a long time they were by me. I had always used the softest cup&core bullets and wanted rapid expansion on our small deer. On behind the lung shots I wanted 'mushy lungs'. I had always considered Partitions a big game bullet, only suitable for large game, something that needed deep penetration. they deserved the deep penetration reputation. What I didn't understand was that the front lead used was especially soft to encourage fast expansion. I use them almost exclusively in my 7x57, from 80lb does to 450lb elk cows. I though as many do, only as deep penetrators. That's a mistake. What are your thoughts? captdavid

Are Ballistic Tips misunderstood? It depends. The first BTs were very 'soft' . Many used them once and said no more. Nosler saw the problem, and changed them. As I understand some have gone through as many as 6 tweaks. Deer bullets are somewhat tougher, especially the 120gn and 150gn 7mm, while the 140gn is softer. The 180gn .308 cal are tougher, as are the larger calibers.
capt david
I have no connection to Nosler, just curiosity.

 

[Sako308]

Have home loaded several different bullets over the years, not Partions but have used BTs. An effective bullet but found damage could be on the excessive side. I have settled on Nosler Accubond (165gr in .308 and 140gr in .270) which I find gives the best compromise between killing and meat damage (red deer), a consideration if one is selling the carcasses.

 

[Jagare]

I used the forerunner to the Nosler BT, and when they stopped making them i went over to the 165grn BT in my .308 never had a problem with that bullet. I bought 180grn Norma ammo loaded with partitions for my first moose hunt in 1985. The Partitions were about the only premium bullet easily available then. I recall they only shot a 3" group at 100 yards in my rifle but i did kill a bull and calve moose, two roe and a fox with them on that trip.
i Still have a few 150 grn partitions loaded some where from when a mate came and shot a large bull moose at my place.
There are plenty of premium bullets of the bonded variety on the market now that are better than the partition as they retain a lot more weight. All the Norma Oryx I've recovered have over 90% weight retention.

 

[Marcher]

Capt. David. Your comments on the Partition agree with my experience. I value the soft front half, as it "does the business " on every size of game, while the rear half penetrates even large animals. The statement that " there are better bonded bullets that retain more weight " may well be true, but do we actually need more retained weight ? If you read Nathan Foster's books on long range killing ( he is a NZ Hunter), he chooses the most fragile bullets , as they must expand at great range, where velocity is really low. Like you, I use a 7X57 which has a modest velocity, but I use 160gn Partitions on everything, from Muntjac to Eland, and the bullet has never failed.

 

[Jagare]

Capt. David. Your comments on the Partition agree with my experience. I value the soft front half, as it "does the business " on every size of game, while the rear half penetrates even large animals. The statement that " there are better bonded bullets that retain more weight " may well be true, but do we actually need more retained weight ? If you read Nathan Foster's books on long range killing ( he is a NZ Hunter), he chooses the most fragile bullets , as they must expand at great range, where velocity is really low. Like you, I use a 7X57 which has a modest velocity, but I use 160gn Partitions on everything, from Muntjac to Eland, and the bullet has never failed.

By having high weight retention you are not spreading lead through out the carcass like you do with the soft front half of partitions. Partitions are good bullets but bullet development has moved on over the years.

 

[finnbear270]

Nosler Partition 130 grain .270, my favourite where lead is allowed, never seen too much damage on Roe with them.

 

[User00033]

By having high weight retention you are not spreading lead through out the carcass like you do with the soft front half of partitions. Partitions are good bullets but bullet development has moved on over the years.

The best bullets for small to medium deer are those that open very quickly to 2x calibre or more, with a sudden and catastrophic energy transfer in the first 100-150mm of travel, whilst retaining enough weight to push through the chest cavity, shedding fragments as it goes in a wide radius of damage. There are lots of bullets that behave like this - Sierra made their reputation 60 odd years ago on exactly this type of bullet. Why they’ve chosen to change the receipe is anyone’s guess, time will tell if it was a good idea or not.

The comment by @Jagare about spreading lead around is fair enough. But what gets up my rear end is the moaning about runners and bullet performance when the choice of bullet is completely wrong for the critter targeted, and the shooter insists on putting it in the part of the chest where the bullet meets the least resistance i.e. aiming for the heart (and often going above it, which is even worse).

A lot of Euro and American hunters choke on their tea at the thought of using AMax / ELD-M, Tipped MatchKings or even Nosler BTs on full sized deer. Yet down here, it is considered entirely normal. What you don’t see or hear of very often at all is blokes using hard, heavy big game bullets on little deer like fallow or yearling reds. We value the bang-flop above all else. Drop it where you shot it. When it comes to chest shooting, only properly frangible bullets can come close to a bankable outcome in that regard.

It is a fact that frangible bullets driven into the “junction box” of CNS and arterial blood supply between the front of the lungs and the heart will deliver instant deaths far more regularly than traditional, harder hunting bullets with narrower wound paths. Get the hang of it, and a runner, even a short distance, is a rarity. Matching the weight of the frangible bullet and the muzzle velocity to the game weight is the key to not blowing massive holes in the animal.

A lot of small Euro deer are shot with bullets that are unnecessarily wide, hard and too heavy. The principal problem with hard bullets producing slow kills is that they just blaze their way straight through the animal instead of dumping all that precious energy where it matters. Its not a question of calibre or cartridge, its a question of a bullet of a certain construction and weight at a certain speed meeting a certain amount of resistance. Too much or too little of any variable in various combinations can have bad outcomes if you have chosen the wrong bullet for the application.

Bottom line is the hunter needs to make a choice between high probability DRT and probable meat loss vs. potential long runners, long recoveries and maybe lost animals.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Ballistic Tips do not "aid expansion" per se.
They aid BC,
BC sells bullets
(This is a misnoma as BC is largely irrelevant inside 300m and only significantly impacts drop, drift, retained energy/velocity beyond that)

Hollow point and large meplat design bullets expand violently on the whole due to the hydraulic action of the liquid filled target forcing the jacket back as the bullet slams into it.
In order to fit a BT into you need a relatively large meplat
We actually sell a line of bullets that the manufacturer sells as hollow point but the ballistic tips can be added and come separately in a bag
The expansion is much more violent as a hollow point than a BT
Think about the tiny meplat on an SMK or similar FMJ bullet. Very poor expansion but they have the same jacketed lead construction as a Gameking or HP bullet.
The difference is the size of the meplat.

Some BT bullets have a reputation for being frangible due to the thinner jackets and larger meplat associated with the BT insertion point
Larger calibre bullets of identical construction display totally different properties
53gr AMax driven at 3000fps will grenade like a VMax and turns to dust.
208gr AMax driven at 3000fps mushrooms like a standard soft point and retains a large percentage of its initial mass in one piece

The Partition is designed to lose the front section through erosion but maintain circa 60% of its mass in the rear section to maintain penetration and pass through.
Shedding the front 40% can produce messy wound channels with a lot of lead powder/shrapnel.
It is arguably the universal do it all design allowing fast expansion at range or low terminal impact velocities but maintain penetration

Its what the SST is supposed to do but that is designed for longer range impacts

the trade off is the short range/high terminal velocity shots where the rapid expansion turns a shoulder bone shot into a dust pan and brush affair...

 

[finnbear270]

A Max are not considered appropriate for deer in the UK, although they used to be marketed as such, the original packaging was illustrated with the types of game suitability.

 

[Border]

All good reading and agree with most of it.
Have noticed a tendency to lable all plastic tipped bullets as ballistic tips. This is not totally correct as it is only Nosler that make ballistic tips. I think I read that Norma made the first plastic tipped bullet though. Hornady, Sierra, Norma, Speer, Barnes and others make plastic tipped hunting and target projectiles, but they aren't all ballistic tips.
I have recently used the the 6.5 140 grain ballistic tip on a trip to the uk. This worked well on the fallow and roe does I shot. I have however obtained some woodleigh 140 grainers to load up for boar and elk.

 

[Orion]

For many years I swore by Nosler 150gr BTs in the .308 and took large numbers of U.K. deer from roe upwards in size. Carcass damage wasn’t really an issue as the majority were head/neck shot and the game dealer wasn’t too fussed about the odd few going through with chest shots and some associated bruising/damage given the overall quantity involved.

Since shooting mainly just for my own and family/friends/neighbours consumption, I’ve become more concerned about the potential for damage and have, like @Jagare, become hooked on Norma Oryx - 165gr in .308 and 232/285gr in 9.3x62. These have performed exactly as the manufacturer’s blurb states with minimal meat damage and no discernible fragmentation on any quarry I shoot, and the animals simply fall over. So I guess there are bonded bullets, and then there are bonded bullets.

“One of the most rapid opening of the bonded core bullets available on the market today, yet still giving deep penetration necessary for poor angle shots. The Oryx is intended for larger game or use at higher velocities”.

Norma Oryx

 

[Jagare]

Back in the UK when i was shooting a lot of wild deer it was with 165grn Nosler BT. I chose the 165grn because they shot really well in my rifle. I never had any complaints from the game dealer. All the park deer i shot with them were neck shot.
I use the Norma Oryx because when I'm In the forest hunting I'm prepared for the biggest moose or boar thats going to walk out in front of me.
Like Border i was in England and shot 2 fallow bucks and a large fallow doe all chest shot both bucks went 15 mtrs and laid within about 5 mtrs of each other. The doe went a little further but with a good blood trail. Its never worried if the deer don't drop on the spot.
So far I've shot Muntjac, roe, fallow, red, moose and boar and a few foxes with the 165grn Oryx and never had a problem yet.
As Orion said they do what they say on the box.

 

[Sako308]

A lot of Euro and American hunters choke on their tea at the thought of using AMax / ELD-M, Tipped MatchKings or even Nosler BTs on full sized deer. Yet down here, it is considered entirely normal. What you don’t see or hear of very often at all is blokes using hard, heavy big game bullets on little deer like fallow or yearling reds. We value the bang-flop above all else. Drop it where you shot it. When it comes to chest shooting, only properly frangible bullets can come close to a bankable outcome in that regard.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on monolithic bullets, many people are having to resort to these now due to local legislation. I used Barnes TTSX (130gr .308) successfully on Roe and Red for a couple of years before I couldn’t source them anymore. All chest shot within 200yds and never had a runner (or nothing far anyway). They seemed to be very effective, always passed through but a decent enough wound channel and little peripheral damage. Are they used much your way?

 

[User00033]

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on monolithic bullets, many people are having to resort to these now due to local legislation. I used Barnes TTSX (130gr .308) successfully on Roe and Red for a couple of years before I couldn’t source them anymore. All chest shot within 200yds and never had a runner (or nothing far anyway). They seemed to be very effective, always passed through but a decent enough wound channel and little peripheral damage. Are they used much your way?

In a recent NZ poll on bullet construction choice for medium deer, 9% said they use a monolithic. They are very much a marmite bullet here. Some love them, some hate them, most though have little or no experience of them.

My experience of them is limited to earlier Barnes bullets ~2008-09 and the experiences (observance only) weren’t good. I wouldn’t choose to use them if you paid me to. But I accept that time and more experience of the current designs might sway my opinion. I was given some blue Barnes loaded cartridges (XLC?) a couple of days ago and can’t find much written about them, I suspect they are an old design. I am simply going to pull the bullets and use the nice cases, and chuck the bullets in the bin.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on monolithic bullets,

Barnes TTSX (130gr .308)
All chest shot within 200yds and never had a runner (or nothing far anyway).
They seemed to be very effective, always passed through but a decent enough wound channel and little peripheral damage. Are they used much your way?

Stamped Copper Monolithic
Very accurate bullet
Expands well at moderate to fast terminal velocities
Where it has had a poor reputation in the UK is at extended ranges over 200, 250m and has a less predictable expansion
Again its the meplat that lets the extremely High BC bullets down when they start to slow down

Becoming a requirement among many land owner/operators
Its a carcase quality focus rather than environmental metal contamination

 

[captdavid]

To me it's tradition, and success. I'm 70 and about 15yrs ago I saw the light with Partitions. With two exceptions, and a few 165 BTs I am using up, I only use Partitions. They have never failed me. I use BTs the stout built 150s in my 280. And 175 round nose in my 7x57, when hunting pigs and I know shots will be under 150yds. That being said, I just can't use those poly tip or mono bullets. I have read that they are fine, by writers I trust, I just can't do it. It's tradition. capt david

 

[Mossypaw]

Just picked up a box of Norma Tipstrike 170gr. I’ll admit to being taken in by the penetration/retained mass blurb on the box. Any views on these ? Better than the Oryx .
Sorry for taking the thread off course, not sure if the Tipstrike is classed as a ballistic tip or whatever.

 

[Paul 600]

Ballistic Tips do not "aid expansion" per se.
They aid BC,
BC sells bullets
(This is a misnoma as BC is largely irrelevant inside 300m and only significantly impacts drop, drift, retained energy/velocity beyond that)

Hollow point and large meplat design bullets expand violently on the whole due to the hydraulic action of the liquid filled target forcing the jacket back as the bullet slams into it.
In order to fit a BT into you need a relatively large meplat
We actually sell a line of bullets that the manufacturer sells as hollow point but the ballistic tips can be added and come separately in a bag
The expansion is much more violent as a hollow point than a BT
Think about the tiny meplat on an SMK or similar FMJ bullet. Very poor expansion but they have the same jacketed lead construction as a Gameking or HP bullet.
The difference is the size of the meplat.

Some BT bullets have a reputation for being frangible due to the thinner jackets and larger meplat associated with the BT insertion point
Larger calibre bullets of identical construction display totally different properties
53gr AMax driven at 3000fps will grenade like a VMax and turns to dust.
208gr AMax driven at 3000fps mushrooms like a standard soft point and retains a large percentage of its initial mass in one piece

The Partition is designed to lose the front section through erosion but maintain circa 60% of its mass in the rear section to maintain penetration and pass through.
Shedding the front 40% can produce messy wound channels with a lot of lead powder/shrapnel.
It is arguably the universal do it all design allowing fast expansion at range or low terminal impact velocities but maintain penetration

Its what the SST is supposed to do but that is designed for longer range impacts

the trade off is the short range/high terminal velocity shots where the rapid expansion turns a shoulder bone shot into a dust pan and brush affair...

Hi Ed,

How your customers getting on with the Ariett? I would certainly be tempted if I were to reload again!

 

[User00033]

A Max are not considered appropriate for deer in the UK, although they used to be marketed as such, the original packaging was illustrated with the types of game suitability.

Hornady was a bit cunning about how it changed the application for A-Max. Simple expansion of their product line, and tighter “compartmentalising” of what was to be used for what... I think the change came in edition 9 of their reloading manual, as my edition 8 still has the A-Max listed as a medium game cartridge. (No game in the UK or NZ can be classed as Large Game, as we know). My cuzzies used 105gr A-Max in their fast twist 43s in Colorado for years, what a bullet.

Edinburgh is spot on with his comments about performance changing with bullet weight. The small, lighter AMax behave like varmint pills, the medium and heavier weight range behave like the equivalent GameKings. The .30cal bullets are just fantastic on red deer. I have used 168gr AMax on mature reds and nothing anyone can tell me from anywhere in this universe will change the fact that they pole axed those beasts on the spot with clinical killing performance. Last time I checked, the red deer here were the same species as those in the UK...

My reloading exercise today in this foul spring weather is one hundred .308 168gr A-Max for deer in anticipated 200-300m ranges. Perfect bullet at that range.

 

[Jagare]

Just picked up a box of Norma Tipstrike 170gr. I’ll admit to being taken in by the penetration/retained mass blurb on the box. Any views on these ? Better than the Oryx .
Sorry for taking the thread off course, not sure if the Tipstrike is classed as a ballistic tip or whatever.

I think you'll find that the Norma Tipstrike is more like a Nosler BT than the Bonded Oryx. As it says in the Norma ad it has a mechanical core lock, a ridge round the inside of the bullet jacket.