Older dog bit new puppy...

[SimpleSimon]

Morning folks,
Bit of a heavy-hearted post. Last night my older bitch went ballistic and bit our new pup (11 weeks old). She had her held down and cut her ear quite badly, with one or two smaller scrapes that had only just broken the skin. They weren't exactly getting on like a house on fire prior to this, but had started to play together a bit in the preceding few days.
Last night, pup was very excited and older bitch I think was probably wanting to settle down. I'd stopped the pup from harassing her a couple of times already, just didn't get there quick enough this time and she flew totally off the handle.
Anyway, I pulled her off the pup and held her calmly until she'd calmed down a bit, and got the Mrs to come and fish the pup out from under the sofa where she was hiding and making a terrible racket.
Pup's ear was bleeding a hell of a lot, but I cleaned it up and applied pressure and it stopped quite quickly. House looked like a murder scene where ever she'd been.

So, satisfied the pup wasn't too badly hurt, we decided to put her cage upstairs to keep an better eye on her overnight. She's a bit worse for wear this morning and lost a bit of her sparkle, acting quite clingy, but seems OK really.

The older bitch is sulking a bit, and had a bit of a grumble when I went to her just now (she's done that forever, it's not a real aggression thing, just seems to be a "leave me alone please" kind of noise that she does from time to time when she wants some space. She'll usually stop it if I sit with her and give her a fuss, but I've ignored it today and left her to sulk...)

So. I'll take the pup to the vet today, just to be sure there's no damage we've missed, and see if they want to give her any antibiotics. I'll keep the two dogs separate for now, of course.

Question is, how do we move on? Pup may have learnt a stiff lesson, or she may just be terrified of the other dog. I'm hoping the other one will be content now that she's asserted herself, but I'm concerned in case it turns into an ongoing thing.

To top it all off, our other (3rd) dog has diarrhoea and had sh@t black liquid all over the floor in two places during the night

Any (helpful!) advice folks?

 

[finnbear270]

Muzzle, & try to be a bit closer at all times or it's a non runner.

 

[Cranborne]

Probably just sorting out the natural hierarchy;I'd keep an eye on them, and give plenty of attention to the older bitch.

 

[VSS]

Sounds like the older bitch had just about had enough of being pestered by the increasingly boisterous youngster, and decided to assert herself. Sounds pretty normal to me. I think trying to keep them apart and making an issue of it may make things worse, in that the older bitch may feel the need to reassert herself every time they're back together again. I think you need to carry on pretty much as if nothing had happened, but obviously make sure that they have separate sleeping quarters, and keep a close eye on their interaction without interfering too much. Quietly intervene if you see tension building, perhaps by taking the older bitch out for a walk on her own.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Some teckel pups can be OTT and quite slow to get the message. Sounds like she's got the message now. I wouldn't separate them for to long but supervise closely. Try not to let them pick up on your own emotions, they will feed off that. Probably plan next meeting for when both are knackered from a decent amount of exercise and stimulation beforehand. Also be careful with vets handing out antibiotics like smarties - especially to young pups.

 

[shakey jake]

if she has gone through the night i wouldnt go to the vet, ears always bleed badly but it looks worse than it is.
if the other dog has the squits, the old one might also be a bit poorly, old and ill i think id be grumpy.
i think getting the older two looked at might be worth considering

 

[SimpleSimon]

Probably just sorting out the natural hierarchy;I'd keep an eye on them, and give plenty of attention to the older bitch.

I think you need to carry on pretty much as if nothing had happened, but obviously make sure that they have separate sleeping quarters, and keep a close eye on their interaction without interfering too much. Quietly intervene if you see tension building, perhaps by taking the older bitch out for a walk on her own.

This was more or less my thinking, thanks both. I don't want to make a big issue of it, as long as the pup isn't absolutely terrified of her then she may have learnt a bit more respect and we need them to be used to each other's company. I'll just keep an even closer eye out... Mrs SimpleSimon is very anxious in case we have a repeat (worse?) occurrence, which is understandable, but I don't feel that separating them is the long-term answer.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Some teckel pups can be OTT and quite slow to get the message. Sounds like she's got the message now. I wouldn't separate them for to long but supervise closely. Try not to let them pick up on your own emotions, they will feed off that. Probably plan next meeting for when both are knackered from a decent amount of exercise and stimulation beforehand. Also be careful with vets handing out antibiotics like smarties - especially to young pups.

Yes, she is a bit of a slow learner
Amittedly she's been grumbled at a few times since coming home, but not in quite that fashion!

I'm in two minds about the antibiotics. Wouldn't have bothered if she was older, but my fear was that a young pup is more susceptible to infection and less able to fight it...?

 

[SimpleSimon]

if she has gone through the night i wouldnt go to the vet, ears always bleed badly but it looks worse than it is.
if the other dog has the squits, the old one might also be a bit poorly, old and ill i think id be grumpy.
i think getting the older two looked at might be worth considering

I'm not too worried about the ear, just wanted the vet to have a good fell about for peace of mind and make sure there's nothing I can't see/feel. I'm 90% sure she's OK, she's up and about doing puppy stuff albeit with a bit less energy...

Will definitely get the diarrhoea dog to the vets if he carries on, but he's fine in himself, not off his food or any more lethargic than usual (he's old...) so I'm not too concerned for now.

 

[Heym SR20]

Look at it from the old dogs point of view. She has been the centre of your life for many years. And now this new retched puppy is the centre of everyone’s attention. Not surprising she growls and snaps.

Dogs are also highly tuned to state of mind of others. If every body stressed out dogs will react. Make sure that everyone else is calm.

 

[Tom270]

Black stools or diarrhoea can be a sign of bleeding in the upper digestive tract , ie black because its digested on the way through. I am not trying to teach sucking an egg and I am better with humans than dogs health.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Definitely, it's not "black" black, not far off the colour of his usual, so I'm not massively worried...

 

[NoIDeer]

Had a similar problem with two intact dogs. The puppy teckel invaded the older cockers life and was never fully forgiven. The few real tussels would have ended in at least one death the spaniel had the weight advantage and the teckel speed and aggression, scary stuff at times and cotateral damage was a real risk. By the time we decided it was never going to fully go away it was too late to have both castrated. Teckels are fearful creatures that dont back off when out gunned, at least mine is.

Ronnie the spaniel had a urinary problem that very quickly turned to septicemia and he passed on. Ted the teckel has now become a normal, for teckels!, dog.

Good luck I hope for you it's just a pecking order moment. Do take professional advice if it continues.

 

[finnbear270]

A muzzle can be a training aid and also a safeguard, it will benefit when you have your hands full with other stuff, it’s not a punishment … only a guarantee of no vets bills.

 

[Bowland blades]

Personally I think Keith has hit it on the head . The pup will remember the lesson and you just have a bit of work ahead . The pup has just learnt something as have you , it can be managed i feel sure .

 

[NullMac]

Sounds like it was overdue. Shame about the cut ear though, it obviously went a bit further than normal. Needs a careful reintroduction in a selected place so no-one is feeling threatened or trapped. Other than that I would be surprised if they didn't sort themselves out.

My lab had a springer pup on its back several times before it got the message. Once received and understood everything was fine in the world.

 

[SimpleSimon]

A muzzle can be a training aid and also a safeguard, it will benefit when you have your hands full with other stuff, it’s not a punishment … only a guarantee of no vets bills.

If it comes to that then that's what will have to happen, but I'd prefer to see how things pan out for a bit first

 

[Donkey Basher]

Similar thing happened with my old springer & one of the new pups we had. Older dog was in the garden & pup insisted on being a pain & chewing ear, etc. Old dog decided enough was enough & showed the pup who was boss - a bit of blood from a cut on the ear & pup crying his head off & cowering under a garden chair. From then on the pup was a lot more respectful of the older dog & they got on fine from that point onwards.

 

[Sakoodin1]

I never tolerate grumbling dogs, they end up going away. When my dogs see me they need to know to be submissive and I’m the pack leader. I’ve never laid a finger on any dogs in my kennels they just know I’m the boss, I’ve only had a couple of dogs that have been funny and one tried to nip my boy so that never happened again. Some older dogs will give a pup a nip as a lesson which I allow but as soon as it’s had a grump I step in and re assert the pack dominance( basically telling the older dog if you do that again then it’s going to end badly for it in a dominant way) surprising what a stern raised voice and a muzzle shake can do.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

I had that problem once and once only, I’m top dog of the pack, grabbed my old bitch by the muzzle, not hard but firmly and scaled her with loud savage language (s,f,c’s you get the idea) amd glared into her eyes so she knew who was boss and never happened again