Potential lead ban?

So, possibly a how long is a piece of string question but.. folk seem fairly certain that a ban on lead bullets is likely,(given how wildfowling went I wouldn’t be too surprised).

But what I do wonder is whether this will likely only impact meat going into the game dealers? Or do you think there will be a blanket ban on their use on either deer or possibly leased land/all land? Shooting the odd deer a year for the freezer so I hope it’s not a blanket ban but interested to hear what people think.

(Main disappointment would’ve be that I think the smaller .22 calibers would struggle shoot a to be roe/Scotland legal with a copper bullet?).

That ship has sailed and is already about to dock!

Good news is that effective and viable, accurate non-lead options are available in 50gr that will stabilise in 14x1 222 and 22-250 barrels
.223 was never an issue

Bigger issue is a Scottish large deer 100gr .243 round which can never work in a factory 1:10” twist
 
That ship has sailed and is already about to dock!

Good news is that effective and viable, accurate non-lead options are available in 50gr that will stabilise in 14x1 222 and 22-250 barrels
.223 was never an issue

Bigger issue is a Scottish large deer 100gr .243 round which can never work in a factory 1:10” twist

Obliquely pushing your own products and exploiting this great betrayal to profiteer at a time like this is undignified, Ed.
 
That ship has sailed and is already about to dock!

Good news is that effective and viable, accurate non-lead options are available in 50gr that will stabilise in 14x1 222 and 22-250 barrels
.223 was never an issue

Bigger issue is a Scottish large deer 100gr .243 round which can never work in a factory 1:10” twist

And what about those that shoot vermin in 17 calibers? Last time I looked the options were extremely limited and over twice the price. I get through around 2000 plus bullets a year in my vermin rifles. Am I supposed to just suck that up, for no justifiable reason, in order to preserve a way of life for a minority whose 'sport' I'm morally opposed to?
 
Obliquely pushing your own products and exploiting this great betrayal to profiteer at a time like this is undignified, Ed.


Really!?
I spent the last three years and thousands of pounds, researching, developing, testing and proving non lead alternatives because I saw it was inevitable that non lead for deer management was coming whether we liked it or not and the vast amount of stuff on the market was overpriced, performed poorly on the quarry target and was was generating huge concern from the volume users.

Very few people want a 50gr .22-250 non lead load but I developed one for one customer which included modifying the bullet to reduce overall length to make it work.

I had volume users test and record efficacy data on 5 species of deer in four regions across the UK before I was willing to commit to a round I could put my time and name to.

Very few people wanted to voluntarily move to non lead due to cost
Last time I looked the Fox Classic Hunter range is £10 a box of 20 cheaper than its competition.
I import the components.
I produce the ammo in the UK
I set the pricing.
£10+ a box cheaper for 3 years with no increases in price despite the exchange rate dropping and the price of copper rising.

I publish the factory load data so people can test out factory loads and replicate them at half the cost.

I have travelled (often at my expense!) the length and breadth of the country from Kendal, Guildford, Thetford, Scotch Corner, Lincolnshire, Northumberland, Dundee, Inverness, Highlands and beyond to present to members of deer management groups, Deer Initiative, BASC, BDS, Estates, Forestry Commission, Forestry England, St Hubert’s Club, Keepering and Stalking groups.
Mainly to give them some insight that it’s not all doom and gloom!

Do I agree with the way that the transition to non lead rifle ammo has been handled?
No

Do I agree with the way non lead shotgun ammo has been handled?
No?

Am I so blind to miss the wholesale assault on our interests, hobbies, jobs and way of life that we are seeing from industry, government, banks, environmental groups and lobbying companies?
No

You see profiteering
i see providing shooters with reasonably priced alternatives

Not something you can say the rest of the big name importers are currently offering.

Sorry if that seems overly blunt but scroll back on what I have been saying about non lead for years.
I am not a box shifter
And there certainly hasn’t been enough profit from my time and investment in this.
Don’t misunderstand my motivation
As much as this is a business I would have made a lot more money ignoring this sector and just selling Lead to everyone.


You see betrayal
I see (for once!) a shrewd move by the bodies that sit down with government to get in front of this before we are TOLD what to do

Posted this earlier

-Manufacturers are not developing viable alternatives at a fast enough rate in the opinion.
-Industry bodies are under pressure form Government and environmental groups
- Industry bodies issue statement on something they would like to see within 5 years but if it doesn’t happen there are no ultimatums or consequences.
- They bolster their position at the lobbying table by saying what Governments and Environmental groups want to hear.
- Everyone including the manufacturers gets a wake up call that this **** might happen in their lifetime.
- Manufacturers increase R&D into non lead alternatives
- Some Shooters move to non lead alternatives voluntarily
- Volumes rise, prices come down, more people buy them, volumes rise, prices come down....

Come on, it’s not rocket science.
And its NOT and ****ing BAN!!

Nowhere does it say BAN!
 
Really!?
I spent the last three years and thousands of pounds, researching, developing, testing and proving non lead alternatives because I saw it was inevitable that non lead for deer management was coming whether we liked it or not and the vast amount of stuff on the market was overpriced, performed poorly on the quarry target and was was generating huge concern from the volume users.

Very few people want a 50gr .22-250 non lead load but I developed one for one customer which included modifying the bullet to reduce overall length to make it work.

I had volume users test and record efficacy data on 5 species of deer in four regions across the UK before I was willing to commit to a round I could put my time and name to.

Very few people wanted to voluntarily move to non lead due to cost
Last time I looked the Fox Classic Hunter range is £10 a box of 20 cheaper than its competition.
I import the components.
I produce the ammo in the UK
I set the pricing.
£10+ a box cheaper for 3 years with no increases in price despite the exchange rate dropping and the price of copper rising.

I publish the factory load data so people can test out factory loads and replicate them at half the cost.

I have travelled (often at my expense!) the length and breadth of the country from Kendal, Guildford, Thetford, Scotch Corner, Lincolnshire, Northumberland, Dundee, Inverness, Highlands and beyond to present to members of deer management groups, Deer Initiative, BASC, BDS, Estates, Forestry Commission, Forestry England, St Hubert’s Club, Keepering and Stalking groups.
Mainly to give them some insight that it’s not all doom and gloom!

Do I agree with the way that the transition to non lead rifle ammo has been handled?
No

Do I agree with the way non lead shotgun ammo has been handled?
No?

Am I so blind to miss the wholesale assault on our interests, hobbies, jobs and way of life that we are seeing from industry, government, banks, environmental groups and lobbying companies?
No

You see profiteering
i see providing shooters with reasonably priced alternatives

Not something you can say the rest of the big name importers are currently offering.

Sorry if that seems overly blunt but scroll back on what I have been saying about non lead for years.
I am not a box shifter
And there certainly hasn’t been enough profit from my time and investment in this.
Don’t misunderstand my motivation
As much as this is a business I would have made a lot more money ignoring this sector and just selling Lead to everyone.


You see betrayal
I see (for once!) a shrewd move by the bodies that sit down with government to get in front of this before we are TOLD what to do

Posted this earlier

-Manufacturers are not developing viable alternatives at a fast enough rate in the opinion.
-Industry bodies are under pressure form Government and environmental groups
- Industry bodies issue statement on something they would like to see within 5 years but if it doesn’t happen there are no ultimatums or consequences.
- They bolster their position at the lobbying table by saying what Governments and Environmental groups want to hear.
- Everyone including the manufacturers gets a wake up call that this **** might happen in their lifetime.
- Manufacturers increase R&D into non lead alternatives
- Some Shooters move to non lead alternatives voluntarily
- Volumes rise, prices come down, more people buy them, volumes rise, prices come down....

Come on, it’s not rocket science.
And its NOT and ****ing BAN!!

Nowhere does it say BAN!

Now is not the time to push your products by trading on shooter anxiety. Show some decorum.
 
And what about those that shoot vermin in 17 calibers? Last time I looked the options were extremely limited and over twice the price. I get through around 2000 plus bullets a year in my vermin rifles. Am I supposed to just suck that up, for no justifiable reason, in order to preserve a way of life for a minority whose 'sport' I'm morally opposed to?


Agreed
Hornady really let the market down when they pulled the NTX 17 bullet from the ammo range
Unfortunately many of the Rimfire and smaller call bullet producers are US focused
.22lr and .17RF are way behind this curve

Centrefire not so much
I have spoken to several of the non lead manufacturers we use in Europe about producing a viable .17/.20cal non lead bullet
Some of the 20cal shooters want a monolithic to stop shedding jackets on standard bullets due to twist rate and velocity

It’s coming
Slowly though unfortunately
 
I accept all your points, and understand the work you, personally, have done on this. But for thousands of shooters of smaller calibres there really is not an alternative.

This backtrack by all involved is the ammunition lobby groups have dreamed of. LACS are the first on the bandwagon, the others will follow suit in short order, applying pressure, judicial reviews until it becomes a ban, and very shortly.

Sorry, missed your reply whilst typing.
 
 
funny how BASC get all the attention when there are 9 signatures.....

Them being the organisation with more members here than the rest might explain it.
I've pointed out my dissatisfaction with the CA both here & to them via email.
I suggest everyone who is unhappy with this also contacts whichever organisations they belong to in a direct manner, as posting here carries little weight with those at the top.
 
True that RIDDICK.

A Sussex policeman told me that forty-two years or so ago. PC Pothecary.

When confronted by a gang look at the biggest and say "You lot may all get me...but I'm going have YOU."

True now as it was then.
 
Ed has a good point, this has been coming for a long time, I remember discussing it a decade ago with a German friend over there when hunting boar.

The main manufacturers have stuck their heads in the sand to a degree and have had half hearted attempts at alternatives as simply lead kills the best and everyone knows it and finding something as effective is difficult or dare I say prohibitively expensive.

What is needed is an independent peer reviewed study regarding the whole lead shot issue.

That aside the way that BASC, CLA, GWCT etc have dealt with this is completely wrong and left of field and their membership/support will suffer (I left BASC after almost two decades and messaged them why - they didn’t answer which means to me they don’t care). I understand they are trying to be proactive but they seem to be doing this on the wrong issue. While I agree with biodegradable or fibre wads and paper cases for environmental reasons beyond this really is an own goal.

Read the SGA release on lead shot and it is everything that the other groups should have advocated - they also do insurance for £40 (less than BASC) for the same cover and actively fight for members regarding issues.

That is where I’m putting my money, I don’t want a crap quarterly magazine filled with adverts.
 
Yesterday after work I went to a local gun shop as I was looking at trading in my sbs for a brand new ou.
Unfortunately I was told that he couldn't take it of my hands because of the current situation. End of season and now the lead ban he feels it would be hard for him to move it on.
Now I wonder if the organisations have thought this through?
If I cant shoot hv steel through my sbs or shoot plastic wads only fiber.I'm going to change it for a gun that will. But the gun trade are not going to take these guns off people hands because there use is limited.
So now I have a £1,500 sbs that's worthless.
Are the shooting organisations going to compensate the members for these losses?
 
My last word. And finally if this is prompted by concerns that retailers won't take lead shot game I'll say this.

I've not eaten wild duck that's sold since the lead ban on wildfowl came in and won't eat pheasant if a lead ban overall comes in.

I value my teeth too much. As I think so others. If I can't be certain it has not been shot with steel I don't buy it.

And last as it is anyway illegal in Scotland to sell dead wild geese what they've been shot with is irrelevant.
 
It is in fact illegal to sell dead wild geese anywhere apart from the Orkney dispensation. We eat goose pie about every two weeks and I still have my teeth as I learned to dodge BBs when they were made of lead. Don't have a problem with ducks either although I have never bought one.
 
My last word. And finally if this is prompted by concerns that retailers won't take lead shot game I'll say this.

I've not eaten wild duck that's sold since the lead ban on wildfowl came in and won't eat pheasant if a lead ban overall comes in.

I value my teeth too much. As I think so others. If I can't be certain it has not been shot with steel I don't buy it.

And last as it is anyway illegal in Scotland to sell dead wild geese what they've been shot with is irrelevant.
simples,, just run all shot game,wildfowl,etc through an MRI machine.
draws out any steel and save on dentists bills.
Harkila probably have one on the drawing board as we speak. ;)
 
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