RCBS vs Hornady

[Nojden]

Hi!
I solved a long lived problem today, when I after more than one year of struggling finally decided to buy a hornady FL die instead of the rcbs. In this case, I reload for 8x57 IRS with a 8x57 IS (mauser) die. The 8x57 IRS is slightly different to 8x57IS with regard to the angle of the shoulder but the 8x57 IS die should work with both.
However, my rcbs die caused a lot of brass that didn't chamber easily, or at all - especially after 2-3 firings. I tried literally everything to make it work - but it always ended up with some brass that didn't chamber. I also let some skilled people to check the rifle... But no problems there.

Finally, after more than one year of frustration, I just thought I'd buy another brand of dies and try..... Who knows.... Might be lucky.... but probably not.

So I went for a cheaper hornady custom grade 8x57 js mauser..... And it worked perfectly - didn't have to turn the die so far down as with the rcbs (only a slight touch to the shell holder) and can suddenly resize with a headspace of 0.05-0.1 mm without any fuss with chambering.

I'm also satisfied with the finish of the hornady die, compared to the rcbs - feels better (and apparently works better). I've had the same issue with another rcbs die and I'm eager to get hold of a hornady for that cartridge too, and save some money as well.

Maybe this was only a coincidence - what is your experiences and opinions of these two brands?

 

[deeangeo]

Never in 36 years of reloading had any problem or issue in use with either RCBS or Hornady dies.
Both are good company’s that have good warranties and customer service policies.
That said, I don’t load/shoot 8x57

 

[8x57]

Nojden until you pointed it out I never realised that there was a slight difference in shoulder angle between the IS and IRS, in fact you made me take a look in my Vhitavuori reloading manual to confirm it. When I started reloading for my 8x57IRS I simply followed accepted advise from the Nobel manual and used a set of 8mm Mauser dies (8x57IS) and substituted for the correct shell holder. The dies that I purchased were a set of Lee RGB dies because they were the only ones readily available at the time.

I had problems with the Lee re-sizer die at first as they weren't resizing sufficiently, and on the advise of Lee I progressively filed off metal from the base of the die. I can't remember just how much metal I removed but when I thought that it was becoming quite excessive I contacted Lee again and they sent me a replacement resizing die. The replacement die worked a treat right from the start so I can only think that the first one wasn't dimensionally correct.
I did purchase a 8x57 collet die but found that simply neck sizing doesn't really work all that well with break action rifles so have stuck with full length sizing.

Incidentally when it came to buying dies for the 9.3x74r the only dies that I could get at that time were RCBS. I can't give you a logical reason why but I simply prefer the quality of the RCBS dies and have never at any time had any issues with any of the RCBS dies in various calibres that I have owned.​

 

[Sinistral]

Hi!
I solved a long lived problem today, when I after more than one year of struggling finally decided to buy a hornady FL die instead of the rcbs. In this case, I reload for 8x57 IRS with a 8x57 IS (mauser) die. The 8x57 IRS is slightly different to 8x57IS with regard to the angle of the shoulder but the 8x57 IS die should work with both.
However, my rcbs die caused a lot of brass that didn't chamber easily, or at all - especially after 2-3 firings. I tried literally everything to make it work - but it always ended up with some brass that didn't chamber. I also let some skilled people to check the rifle... But no problems there.

Finally, after more than one year of frustration, I just thought I'd buy another brand of dies and try..... Who knows.... Might be lucky.... but probably not.

So I went for a cheaper hornady custom grade 8x57 js mauser..... And it worked perfectly - didn't have to turn the die so far down as with the rcbs (only a slight touch to the shell holder) and can suddenly resize with a headspace of 0.05-0.1 mm without any fuss with chambering.

I'm also satisfied with the finish of the hornady die, compared to the rcbs - feels better (and apparently works better). I've had the same issue with another rcbs die and I'm eager to get hold of a hornady for that cartridge too, and save some money as well.

Maybe this was only a coincidence - what is your experiences and opinions of these two brands?

I understand the difference between the 8x57JS & 8x57JRS. This is just a theory, but the shoulder angle within the 8x57JS FLR die is less acute (or more inclined to put it the other way) so isn’t forming the right profile on your 8x57JRS cases (which are less ‘pointy’). Hope I’ve got that right.

Also, the 8x57JS dies are probably shorter internally than proper 8x57JRS dies which are designed to resize the case further down closer to the rim.

It sounds like the headspace on your rimmed cases isn’t right. It’s too long so they won’t chamber.

The 7x65R users on here have had problems using 7x64 dies. Usually the rimmed counterpart of a rimless cartridge has exactly the same shape (the 5.6x50 & 5.6 x50R too) so you’ve got an another problem to deal with.

I haven’t used Hornady die-sets because I’m just not struck on the design. It could be that the RCBS dies are correct dimensionally for the 8x57JS but the Hornady dies are not. If they’re working on your rimmed cases that’s fine but it might just be luck.

 

[8x57]

Sinistral I am happy with the dies that I am using at the moment to reload for my 8x57JRS but am wondering if there are any companies producing dies specific to JRS rather than the rimless round. I am talking about dies that appear on their standard lists rather than custom dies.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

not a fan of Hornady dies

big fan of hornady in general though, their dies let them down

 

[Nojden]

Thanks for your replies, i´ve used RCBS FL dies exclusively since I started reloading 7 years ago. I Can´t say they are worse or better than others, but i´ve had some issues with a crooked decapping/expander unit that caused runout on a RCBS 7x65R die, but customer service was great and I got a new unit that works well. I also like the RCBS dies for the reason that you might adjust the decapping/expander unit in such manner that it´s a bit loose (i.e. not tightened) to avoid stress to the brass if the expander happens to be off center, or loosen and re-tighten it during neck expansion to adjust it to center. This does´nt seem to be possible with the hornady die.

However, as 8x57 pointed out, not many people are aware of the differences in dimensions between 8x57 IS and 8x57 IRS and the american producers of FL dies might not care so much either. I haven´t seen any particular FL die for 8x57 IRS and the common recommendation is to use the 8x57 IS mauser as it works in most cases. But I have read in some reloading articles that sometimes you have to make a complete full lenght resizing every other firing to avoid problems with chambering.

When I contacted RCBS in this issue, they were aware of the differences between the cartridges and recommended me to screw down the die against the shell holder and then screw the die down an additional 1/4 turn or 90 degrees to achieve a firm cam-over. I´ve done this but i have to use a lot of force to pull the handle and it also ended up in great headspace, which is not good for case life. To take away some metal from the die might also work, but I´m very happy that the hornady die solved it.
might just be pure luck, makes me happy anyway.

 

[Sinistral]

Sinistral I am happy with the dies that I am using at the moment to reload for my 8x57JRS but am wondering if there are any companies producing dies specific to JRS rather than the rimless round. I am talking about dies that appear on their standard lists rather than custom dies.

Wish I could help out with some advice, but it’s a safe bet there’s nothing 'off the shelf' in the UK.
CH4D will have what you need at a price.

https://en.strobl.cz/DS8x57R.323-ch4d-reloading-dies-3/

I was working today on a similar problem with another shooter. He’s bought a 9mm Destroyer Carbine (Eibar of Spain c.1924) which has a Mauser 1893 action chambered for 9mm Bergmann (9x23mm). The shorter standard 9mm Para (9x19mm) dies are working for now on substitute 9mm Largo cases from Starline USA, but not on 9x23mm Steyr which is around in the UK. These two are supposed to interchange but the latter won’t work. I’m sure it’s a resizing problem rather than the mechanics of the rifle, so am trying this route first.

 

[enfieldspares]

Not a fan of Hornady dies

Neither am I. RCBS for forty-three years...then just the last three years I've been converted to Redding dies. Their standard ones, not the fancy ones, wouldn't now buy another set of RCBS. The quality control isn't what it was I fear.

 

[enfieldspares]

He’s bought a 9mm Destroyer Carbine (Eibar of Spain c.1924) which has a Mauser 1893 action chambered for 9mm Bergmann (9x23mm). The shorter standard 9mm Para (9x19mm) dies are working for now on substitute 9mm Largo cases from Starline USA, but not on 9x23mm Steyr which is around in the UK.

There's a quicker and easier fix for dies. The Practical Pistol shooters' 9mm Super is a clone, for all intent and purpose, 9mm Bergmann. And 9mm Super dies are pretty much a standard catalogued item. Could 9mm Super cases be used? Possibly...possibly not. It depends. From memory I think that they were the cases that were used at a Shooting Centre in the Midlands in a "Destroyer". But I may be wrong...proceed at your own risk and certainly NOT with factory ammunition...just use 9mm Super empty cases for reloading to "Destroyer" pressure specification ONLY!!

9mm SUPER

[TABLE="class: infobox, width: 315"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Case type[/TH]
[TD]Rimless, straight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Bullet diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.04 mm (0.356 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Neck diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.68 mm (0.381 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Base diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.93 mm (0.391 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Rim diameter[/TH]
[TD]10.01 mm (0.394 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Case length[/TH]
[TD]22.86 mm (0.900 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Overall length[/TH]
[TD]33.02 mm (1.300 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

9mm BERGMANN

[TABLE="class: infobox, width: 315"]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Case type[/TH]
[TD]Rimless, tapered[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Bullet diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.02 mm (0.355 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Neck diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.63 mm (0.379 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Base diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.91 mm (0.390 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Rim diameter[/TH]
[TD]9.96 mm (0.392 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Case length[/TH]
[TD]23.11 mm (0.910 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Overall length[/TH]
[TD]33.53 mm (1.320 in)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Sinistral]

Thanks. This cartridge is usually called 9x23mm Winchester so there’s plenty of data on it (& warnings) in all the manuals particularly the RCBS #14.

I’m not all that clued up on pistol cartridges as 20 years have elapsed since the ban, but the case is more a clone of the 9mm Steyr than the Largo so probably won’t fit the bill. Dies in 9x23 Win might do the job, but I don’t know of any UK stockists. Kranks have about 30 carbide die-sets in pistol calibres, but don’t carry this one at all.

 

[Nojden]

Sinistral, thanks for the tip about CH4D dies - impressive selection of dies, never heard of them - anyone who knows about the quality?

 

[8x57]

I was working today on a similar problem with another shooter. He’s bought a 9mm Destroyer Carbine (Eibar of Spain c.1924) which has a Mauser 1893 action chambered for 9mm Bergmann (9x23mm). The shorter standard 9mm Para (9x19mm) dies are working for now on substitute 9mm Largo cases from Starline USA, but not on 9x23mm Steyr which is around in the UK. These two are supposed to interchange but the latter won’t work. I’m sure it’s a resizing problem rather than the mechanics of the rifle, so am trying this route first.

Have you looked on the full-bore U.K. website as I know that there are a couple of guys on that site that reload for destroyer carbines? I believe that some of them use cut down .223 cases as the basis for their reloads.
Also in the Nobel Sport reloading manual by Rene Malfatti which is a few years old now regarding reloading 9mm Bergmann-Bayard it says;
"9mm Largo cases are generally Berdan primed. While this is nothing that could stop a dedicated handloader, Boxer cases can be had by trimming 9mm Winchester Magnum cases down to 23mm (0.906 inch) chamfering them and running them through the 9mm Largo sizing die. 9x23mm cases are now available from several manufacturers with Boxer primer pockets."

However, as 8x57 pointed out, not many people are aware of the differences in dimensions between 8x57 IS and 8x57 IRS and the american producers of FL dies might not care so much either. I haven´t seen any particular FL die for 8x57 IRS and the common recommendation is to use the 8x57 IS mauser as it works in most cases. But I have read in some reloading articles that sometimes you have to make a complete full lenght resizing every other firing to avoid problems with chambering.

When I contacted RCBS in this issue, they were aware of the differences between the cartridges and recommended me to screw down the die against the shell holder and then screw the die down an additional 1/4 turn or 90 degrees to achieve a firm cam-over. I´ve done this but i have to use a lot of force to pull the handle and it also ended up in great headspace, which is not good for case life. To take away some metal from the die might also work, but I´m very happy that the hornady die solved it.
might just be pure luck, makes me happy anyway.

I would say that perhaps they have been misled and are just following what has been written in the likes of Cartridges of the World which says "this is the rimmed version of the 8x57mm JS German military round" and "The 8x57RmmJS gives the same performance as the rimless 8x57mmJS Mauser" which it doesn't, as it is loaded to lower pressures for break open guns and will be around 200fps slower for similar bullet weights.

I use the method which you say was advised by RCBS for setting up the dies when reloading for my 8x57IRS and haven't noticed any particular problems regarding short case life, in fact I have been quite impressed by how long the RWS cases that I purchased once fired from a chap in Germany have lasted. If anything it is the primer pockets that have started to go rather than the necks of the cases. I purchased a new batch of once fired Sellior&Bellot cases off a site member about 18 months ago and since them have added to them by purchasing other cases off another site member which I will hold in reserve. They could be there for some time because so far the first batch of S&B cases are lasting well and showing no signs of excessive wear.

 

[Sinistral]

Have you looked on the full-bore U.K. website as I know that there are a couple of guys on that site that reload for destroyer carbines? I believe that some of them use cut down .223 cases as the basis for their reloads.
Also in the Nobel Sport reloading manual by Rene Malfatti which is a few years old now regarding reloading 9mm Bergmann-Bayard it says;
"9mm Largo cases are generally Berdan primed. While this is nothing that could stop a dedicated handloader, Boxer cases can be had by trimming 9mm Winchester Magnum cases down to 23mm (0.906 inch) chamfering them and running them through the 9mm Largo sizing die. 9x23mm cases are now available from several manufacturers with Boxer primer pockets."

Thanks very much, M8 x 57.

Sorry if my first post wasn’t clear. The chap has some 9mm Largo cases from Starline of Missouri which work, but these won’t last long at the current rate of attrition. I’ve since been into my little box of tricks to work on the 9mm Steyr cases which are distorted. The dummies made up now chamber in the 9mm Bergmann so loading & firing a few will be the next step. This is a protracted business when you can’t get your hands on the rifle.

It’s evident now that this is a die problem (which we don’t have) so only needs a band aid rather than reconstructive surgery. It was cheaper for the chap to buy in some new cases than install the full lathe setup a proper enthusiast always seems to have out back. I’m always impressed at the ingenuity of these solutions but lack the machinery & technical skills to try them out.

Your Nobel manual will be right about original ammunition being berdan primed. I’ve never seen any pukka 9mm Bergmann, but do have 9mm Glisenti from Fiocchi used in pistols & machine carbines by Italy from the same era. This is really old brass also berdan primed so that ‘this is nothing that could stop a dedicated handloader’ makes me feel inadequate.

 

[Sinistral]

Sinistral, thanks for the tip about CH4D dies - impressive selection of dies, never heard of them - anyone who knows about the quality?

Probably the widest range on the planet. Reputably very good. Nicely made too, but I’ve only seen them in .310 Cadet. A friend with a very rare 9.3x53 Swiss uses their standard set to convert 7.5x55 Schmidt-Rubin cases.

 

[8x57]

Sinistral yes you did make yourself perfectly clear and I did catch your reference to the starline largo cases. I just thought that it might probably be better if I quoted what was written word for word and not put my slant on it, which could possibly slant the message even if some of it wasn't really relevant.

Like you I have only ever read good things about CH4D. I too wish I had a lathe in the garage. And it would be even better if I knew how to use one.

 

[enfieldspares]

I'm not overly impressed with CH dies that I've tried recently in the more exotic calibres such as 8mm French Revolver and 7.62mm Nagant. Functional but not as well overall as Redding or the older RCBS gear. And some dimensions not quite right. That are used for reloading for a Home Office s7 Range. Fortunately got a vintage set of RCBS at a French Arms Fair and they were much better. CH4 will do the job...their cannelure tool is excellent...but their dies aren't as good as some others.