Re-barreling UK

I have a Sako with London proof marks which was clearly short-chambered (now rectified), which had been reamed from 222 to 223. Would not close on 6 variations of factory 223, only one that would chamber was some undersized Wolf ammo meant for AR's...

View attachment 192323

Without the details what's the point in discussing things? There is a gunsmith up North who has made rifles for Royals and will talk your ear off about proofing standards if you let him!

The USA is where law suits and life insurance reign supreme so when a manufacturer slips up it could be the end of them. Look at 'Big Green' and their trigger recall...
Looking at the 223 on the barrel that does not look like proof house work more a 222 converted at home by over stamping. Did the London proof house confirm they re proofed it for 223?

Won’t name the maker as the legal discussions are still on going.
 
I have one for you. I was involved with some guns from the US going to proof. Now a fair few where bought from a well know and respected US company if not sent to us they would as you point out just be sold in the US and been ‘ ‘safe’ to use with no proof test.

Now because they came to GB they where all sent to proof unfortunately a fair few failed proof before firing at the gauging stage incorrect chamber sizes head space etc.

So what failed a major US manufactures QC (I won’t name them) what caught the failed the proof test saving potential issues or injury.
Define "failed proof", and then define failed. An anecdotal test does not prove they failed, only that they failed the proof test, which is inherently flawed is testing whether a firearm is actually safe to fire with factory, SAAMI spec'ed ammunition.

Again, you miss the forest, for the tree in the way.
 
Failed did not meet test specifications. The chambers where not in specification to CIP standards.

there is more to proof than just blowing up guns including ensuring the rifle was built to CIP chamber dimensions or other agreed standard.

Britain isn’t the only country to us this system maybe the USA has it wrong
 
So a SAAMI spec'ed gun failed CIP chamber dimensions? Not a shocking surprise. Did that surprise you?

And failing a test specification does not mean the firearm is faulty, only that it did not pass a test that is inherently anecdotal and European standards based.

Again, failing proof doesn't necessarily mean the firearm is unsafe, only that it didn't pass proofing tests. Tests that, when talking live fire tests (not chamber specs), proves **** all for the quality of materials and design. The question is; is proofing really required? Short answer (aside from legal requirements) is no, it's not.
 
So a SAAMI spec'ed gun failed CIP chamber dimensions? Not a shocking surprise. Did that surprise you?

And failing a test specification does not mean the firearm is faulty, only that it did not pass a test that is inherently anecdotal and European standards based.

Again, failing proof doesn't necessarily mean the firearm is unsafe, only that it didn't pass proofing tests. Tests that, when talking live fire tests (not chamber specs), proves **** all for the quality of materials and design. The question is; is proofing really required? Short answer (aside from legal requirements) is no, it's not.

I order guns with CIP chambers so yes it does surprise me that they where not.

I’ll leave you to your views I have mine I’m glad we had proof and the over 100 guns that failed where picked up.
 
I have a Sako with London proof marks which was clearly short-chambered (now rectified), which had been reamed from 222 to 223. Would not close on 6 variations of factory 223, only one that would chamber was some undersized Wolf ammo meant for AR's...

View attachment 192323

Without the details what's the point in discussing things? There is a gunsmith up North who has made rifles for Royals and will talk your ear off about proofing standards if you let him!

The USA is where law suits and life insurance reign supreme so when a manufacturer slips up it could be the end of them. Look at 'Big Green' and their trigger recall...

That doesn't look as if it had been re-proofed after someone "bubbaed" the re-chambering and did a bad job of overstamping the original .222 marking to make it look like .223. Otherwise I think that the proof house should have struck out the original markings and put on new ones.

At the very least the proof house should have rejected it if the gauging checks failed, as I suspect they would have.

FWIW CIP max. pressure for .222 is 3700 BAR. .223 is 4300 BAR (the same as for Nato EPVAT testing of 5.56, so crack on with mil surplus ammo in confidence.)

Whereas SAAMI (who are only an advisory body), set .223 Remington at only 3800 BAR, albeit using a much cruder method of testing which may not have much read-across. Besides, in the US it seems anyone can make anything and sell it untested.

For your elucidation, see http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF

Those proof marks suggest to me that it originally passed, as a .222, in 1996 at the London proof house. AFAIK both UK proof houses keep permanent records of all rifles by make and serial number, so you should be able to ascertain if it was ever sent for re-proof after the conversion, as it was legally required to be.

Selected extracts below:

6.—If a barrel of one sort is converted into a barrel of another sort, (for example a short barrel into a longer barrel or a barrel into a sound moderated barrel or from a fixed choke to an interchangeable choke,) the barrel shall be deemed out of proof from the time when the conversion is begun. (See sections 115 and 130 of the Principal Act, as amended.) Barrels converted 7.— Unless required otherwise by the Sender an arm submitted for re-proof shall, if in the opinion of the Proof Master it ought so to be proved, be proved by such corresponding Definitive Proof or Special Definitive Proof, as that by which it was proved on the last previous occasion of proof or re-proof. If, either at the request of the Sender or option of the Proof Master, it is not so re-proved, it shall be proved as if it had never previously been proved.

9.— (1) The Sender shall deliver each arm and each barrel in a proper state for proof. Condition generally (2) Each barrel shall be fine-bored and turned or ground. (3) Each barrel shall be, if sent for proof, clean, free from rust, pitting, dents and bulges, both internally and externally, or, if sent for re-proof, in a reasonable condition, to the satisfaction of the Proof Master. (4) If an action be fitted to a barrel, it must be tight on the breech face, and, the head space shall be to the satisfaction of the Proof Master.

12.— As to any barrel or arm submitted for Definitive Proof, or Definitive Re-proof, or Special Definitive Proof, or Special Definitive Reproof:— (a) In condition, each barrel shall be struck up, smoothed, and chambered, and, if intended for a rifled arm, rifled. Each barrel shall be fitted to its action, which shall be finished or in the finished state and intended for such arm ...

18.— Before firing a load for any Definitive Proof or Re-proof, or Special Definitive Proof or Re-proof: — Measurement of bore and chamber dimensions. ...

51. — If a barrel or arm already proved and marked as proved shall fail any subsequent proof or re-proof, the Proof Master shall, before returning the whole or any part of it to the Sender, either delete or bar out all existing marks, (excepting any unique identifier or serial number) or ensure, to his satisfaction, that the whole of such barrel or arm will, within a reasonable time, be re-submitted for proof or re-proof’.
 
That doesn't look as if it had been re-proofed after someone "bubbaed" the re-chambering and did a bad job of overstamping the original .222 marking to make it look like .223. Otherwise I think that the proof house should have struck out the original markings and put on new ones.

At the very least the proof house should have rejected it if the gauging checks failed, as I suspect they would have.

FWIW CIP max. pressure for .222 is 3700 BAR. .223 is 4300 BAR (the same as for Nato EPVAT testing of 5.56, so crack on with mil surplus ammo in confidence.)

Whereas SAAMI (who are only an advisory body), set .223 Remington at only 3800 BAR, albeit using a much cruder method of testing which may not have much read-across. Besides, in the US it seems anyone can make anything and sell it untested.

For your elucidation, see http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF

Those proof marks suggest to me that it originally passed, as a .222, in 1996 at the London proof house. AFAIK both UK proof houses keep permanent records of all rifles by make and serial number, so you should be able to ascertain if it was ever sent for re-proof after the conversion, as it was legally required to be.

Selected extracts below:

6.—If a barrel of one sort is converted into a barrel of another sort, (for example a short barrel into a longer barrel or a barrel into a sound moderated barrel or from a fixed choke to an interchangeable choke,) the barrel shall be deemed out of proof from the time when the conversion is begun. (See sections 115 and 130 of the Principal Act, as amended.) Barrels converted 7.— Unless required otherwise by the Sender an arm submitted for re-proof shall, if in the opinion of the Proof Master it ought so to be proved, be proved by such corresponding Definitive Proof or Special Definitive Proof, as that by which it was proved on the last previous occasion of proof or re-proof. If, either at the request of the Sender or option of the Proof Master, it is not so re-proved, it shall be proved as if it had never previously been proved.

9.— (1) The Sender shall deliver each arm and each barrel in a proper state for proof. Condition generally (2) Each barrel shall be fine-bored and turned or ground. (3) Each barrel shall be, if sent for proof, clean, free from rust, pitting, dents and bulges, both internally and externally, or, if sent for re-proof, in a reasonable condition, to the satisfaction of the Proof Master. (4) If an action be fitted to a barrel, it must be tight on the breech face, and, the head space shall be to the satisfaction of the Proof Master.

12.— As to any barrel or arm submitted for Definitive Proof, or Definitive Re-proof, or Special Definitive Proof, or Special Definitive Reproof:— (a) In condition, each barrel shall be struck up, smoothed, and chambered, and, if intended for a rifled arm, rifled. Each barrel shall be fitted to its action, which shall be finished or in the finished state and intended for such arm ...

18.— Before firing a load for any Definitive Proof or Re-proof, or Special Definitive Proof or Re-proof: — Measurement of bore and chamber dimensions. ...

51. — If a barrel or arm already proved and marked as proved shall fail any subsequent proof or re-proof, the Proof Master shall, before returning the whole or any part of it to the Sender, either delete or bar out all existing marks, (excepting any unique identifier or serial number) or ensure, to his satisfaction, that the whole of such barrel or arm will, within a reasonable time, be re-submitted for proof or re-proof’.

That was exactly my point proof houses don’t over stamp they X out and restamp. They will have a record by serial number to ensure the rifle is chambered as marked.
 
CIP chamber dimensions are to all extents and purposes identical to those "advised" by SAAMI. Except that CIP define the shoulder position in a precise measurable way, unlike SAAMI who just leave it as one practically unmeasurable dimension, floating somewhere halfway down it.
 
BTW, most .222 barrels have a 14" twist, which is rather limiting if converted to .223, where 12" or faster is the norm. Even with lead, never-mind lead-free.
 
CIP chamber dimensions are to all extents and purposes identical to those "advised" by SAAMI. Except that CIP define the shoulder position in a precise measurable way, unlike SAAMI who just leave it as one practically unmeasurable dimension, floating somewhere halfway down it.
Wrong.
 
BTW, most .222 barrels have a 14" twist, which is rather limiting if converted to .223, where 12" or faster is the norm. Even with lead, never-mind lead-free.

I'm aware of this and can inform you that the rifle left the Sako factory in 1964 as a 222 and it went to America, imported by Garcia Sporting Arms.

I also just about manage to look up proof markings, SAAMI and CIP cartridge specifications for myself thanks to the wonders of the internet.

Based on your posts, it seems you too can use a search engine, should I offer you congratulations on this miraculous achievement?

PS: Sako's of this era were made in metric barrel lengths and twist rates, or did you know that already?
 
I'm aware of this and can inform you that the rifle left the Sako factory in 1964 as a 222 and it went to America, imported by Garcia Sporting Arms.

I also just about manage to look up proof markings, SAAMI and CIP cartridge specifications for myself thanks to the wonders of the internet.

Based on your posts, it seems you too can use a search engine, should I offer you congratulations on this miraculous achievement?

PS: Sako's of this era were made in metric barrel lengths and twist rates, or did you know that already?
What did it leave the London proof house as 222 or 223?
 
Right.

SAAMI VOLUNTARY PERFORMANCE STANDARDS


Pages 14 and 68 refers.


Compare and contrast the chamber dimensions. Use the SAAMI metric dimensions. They are to all practical purposes IDENTICAL to the CIP ones, once you understand the different way the tolerances are specified.

But there is a possible delta L issue of 0.08 mm between them (thats 3/1000" in old money) meaning that none CIP certified factory ammo at the maximum SAAMI dimension might not quite fit into a chamber cut to the minimum CIP dimension. Which should never happen in any CIP nation where the ammo MUST comply to CIP, wherever it might be made, or imported from.

Homeloaders can of course resize their brass however they choose.
 
And it had a short chamber and they didn’t mark it as 223 Rem NON STANDARD very unusual what year was it reproofed as 223 in London must have been a fair time ago.

From Proof and CIP | Eley Hawk.

On June 5th, 1980, the United Kingdom joined the International Proof Commission (CIP). As a result of this, new Rules of Proof were introduced in 1984 and these were amended in 1986 and 1989.
There are now thirteen members of CIP whose proof marks are reciprocally recognised. The 1984 Rules of Proof introduced a transitional period of five years during which either Imperial or Metric markings could
be used at the discretion of the submitter on the weapon the following proof. With effect from October 1st, 1989 only Metric markings were allowed to be used; The actual proof marks used by Birmingham and
London have not changed only the marking on guns of the chamber length in millimeters and that of the pressure in Bars, (e.g. 850 Bar) whereas under the British system the Highest Mean
Service Pressure was shown.


By chamber length I think they are referring to shotguns, where our cartridges are now only specified in mm length, no longer in inches. So don't try putting e.g a 70mm cartridge in an old 2.5" chambered gun, etc.
 
Last edited:
I'm aware of this and can inform you that the rifle left the Sako factory in 1964 as a 222 and it went to America, imported by Garcia Sporting Arms.

I also just about manage to look up proof markings, SAAMI and CIP cartridge specifications for myself thanks to the wonders of the internet.

Based on your posts, it seems you too can use a search engine, should I offer you congratulations on this miraculous achievement?

PS: Sako's of this era were made in metric barrel lengths and twist rates, or did you know that already?
Of course Sako have always been metricated.

What is your barrel twist, maybe something like 356 mm ? ;)
 
Last edited:
I have a Sako with London proof marks which was clearly short-chambered (now rectified), which had been reamed from 222 to 223. Would not close on 6 variations of factory 223, only one that would chamber was some undersized Wolf ammo meant for AR's...
I must admit to some misgivings on those proof marks. The thing over the NP is meant to be an arm holding a seaxe/cutlass and is usually applied by one stamp, same as the LP/line/year. This one looks a bit off, to be honest. It looks like the NP was one stamp and the line with the seaxe above was a separate stamp. This is what it should look like:
1612640564798.png

And I would have thought that the calibre would be stamped immediately after the LP over 96, rather than in a separate location. And wouldn't it normally be described as the cartridge it had been proofed for? And I agree that, had the reproof taken place at a proof house, they would have barred out the .222 and replaced it with .223 or .223 REM. The overstamping of the .222 with just the last digit turned into a 3 is a little bit of a red flag.

I remember handling a fake duck's foot four barrelled flintlock pistol that had been made in the 1980s rather than a century before, artificially aged and also marked with alleged London Proof House marks. As I recall, the seller was prosecuted for the fake proof marks. I also saw a 3" .44 Mag S&W 29 that was sold by a UK dealer who imported American pistols and didn't bother sending them to the Proof House. Again, a successful prosecution was the result.
 
And it had a short chamber and they didn’t mark it as 223 Rem NON STANDARD very unusual what year was it reproofed as 223 in London must have been a fair time ago.
I don't believe they would have passed it if they couldn't have chambered the .223 proof rounds................
 
I don't believe they would have passed it if they couldn't have chambered the .223 proof rounds................
Proof rounds are not go/nogo gauges. Before they are fired, firstly the chamber is checked with certified gauges. If they fail this they are rejected, see post #205.
 
Back
Top