Register of competent deer stalkers - results?

[sauer]

ok.....

so the cartridge companies said they weren't consulted

BASC says there was consultation .....


which was it ?



Paul

 

[Husky]

There was I thinking that this thread was about a Register of Competent Deer Stalkers.

But as usual it has diverged off topic.

Can we have a separate thread just to complain about the BASC and any other organisation that people are unhappy with ?

 

[Spear Chucker]

There was I thinking that this thread was about a Register of Competent Deer Stalkers.

But as usual it has diverged off topic.

Can we have a separate thread just to complain about the BASC and any other organisation that people are unhappy with ?

I think that I would suggest that the lead debate and the competent Stalker register are lightning rods for the same underlying problem. That is that having been betrayed by the shooting representative bodies, many of us distrust the motives of the aforementioned associations. Mr O'Gorman has consistently undermined any standing that he and his organisation previously held. He has done this by use of personalised attacks, tenacious use of selected and scientifically suspect (in some cases discredited) reports and, when out of his depth, resorting to school-ma'amish moralising. Doing so at half-cock on a forum frequented by hard nosed stalkers who understand ballistics and a lot of the science behind bullets, their construction and the effects thereof -humane and otherwise- on their quarry, is a mistake.
It underlines my belief (i suspect I am not alone in this respect) that BASC is unfit for purpose as a body in support those of us engaged in a more technically complex activity than shotgun sports.
This is why many of us here keep coming back to Lead as a topic. If they sell us out on the one hand, why would we trust them on the other?
I am sure you remember the BASC lead on the introduction and promotion of the DSC programme. Look at it now. People are being refused firearms certificates by the police in the absence of DSC1. In my case, by an FEO (at the time) who had failed to attain DSC1 three times, yet held numerous centrefire rifles for hunting live quarry. We have bodies refusing stalkers access unless they hold DSC 2. A standard which is not practically useful unless you are highly commercial and vertically integrated from stalking pretty much to game dealer status.
BASC is a political organisation that has lost sight of the needs and sentiments of its grass roots membership. It may be suited to shotgun sports, but anything more is lost on them. They may well be the voice of game shooting, but for our disciplines I personally feel they are a busted flush and little more than a police/home office and environmentalist lobby patsy.

 

[Husky]

But why can't you post the above on thread criticising BASC ?

 

[lambic]

Just read this thread for the first time.

I think it is safe to conclude that BASCs register has not been the resounding commercial success they hoped would further fill their coffers ?

 

[Spear Chucker]

But why can't you post the above on thread criticising BASC ?

Because I was responding to your very valid question.

 

[Husky]

You could have responded by starting your own thread for criticising the BASC .

 

[terrier1]

ok.....

so the cartridge companies said they weren't consulted

BASC says there was consultation .....


which was it ?



Paul

Well who do you believe.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Well who do you believe.

BASC.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Just read this thread for the first time.

I think it is safe to conclude that BASCs register has not been the resounding commercial success they hoped would further fill their coffers ?

The objective is to help deer stalkers and this is not a commercial activity as you falsely claim. Perhaps you might actually read the articles before discrediting yourself. Here they are:

Register of competent deer stalkers

The BASC register of competent deer stalkers is an initiative which seeks to open up deer management opportunities for BASC members.

basc.org.uk

Stand by me

What should a deer stalking mentor provide? For many people access to suitable ground is the hardest thing to get.

basc.org.uk

With a little help…

An experienced mentor can help novice stalkers progress after their DSC1 course and finding the right person is something BASC can help with.

basc.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think that I would suggest that the lead debate and the competent Stalker register are lightning rods for the same underlying problem. That is that having been betrayed by the shooting representative bodies, many of us distrust the motives of the aforementioned associations. Mr O'Gorman has consistently undermined any standing that he and his organisation previously held. He has done this by use of personalised attacks, tenacious use of selected and scientifically suspect (in some cases discredited) reports and, when out of his depth, resorting to school-ma'amish moralising. Doing so at half-cock on a forum frequented by hard nosed stalkers who understand ballistics and a lot of the science behind bullets, their construction and the effects thereof -humane and otherwise- on their quarry, is a mistake.
It underlines my belief (i suspect I am not alone in this respect) that BASC is unfit for purpose as a body in support those of us engaged in a more technically complex activity than shotgun sports.
This is why many of us here keep coming back to Lead as a topic. If they sell us out on the one hand, why would we trust them on the other?
I am sure you remember the BASC lead on the introduction and promotion of the DSC programme. Look at it now. People are being refused firearms certificates by the police in the absence of DSC1. In my case, by an FEO (at the time) who had failed to attain DSC1 three times, yet held numerous centrefire rifles for hunting live quarry. We have bodies refusing stalkers access unless they hold DSC 2. A standard which is not practically useful unless you are highly commercial and vertically integrated from stalking pretty much to game dealer status.
BASC is a political organisation that has lost sight of the needs and sentiments of its grass roots membership. It may be suited to shotgun sports, but anything more is lost on them. They may well be the voice of game shooting, but for our disciplines I personally feel they are a busted flush and little more than a police/home office and environmentalist lobby patsy.

The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting encouraged by nine organisations since February 2020 was for lead shot not lead rifle ammunition.

As regards lead rifle ammunition it was BASC that submitted technical reports to the HSE to argue for exemptions for smaller calibres and this was successful. We wanted an exemption for .243 also on the basis of technical reports and we will continue to argue for that.

As regards SD members, some have moved away from lead rifle ammunition and many are happy with lead rifle ammunition. That is their choice and perhaps not for you to dictate.

BASC is a membership organisation that serves the needs and wants of its membership very well and that is why BASC continues to be the largest shooting organisation in the UK. Perhaps drop the axe and join the fight by supporting BASC.

Join

As a member of BASC you not only get all the help and support, you are also helping support our continued fight for sustainable shooting.

basc.org.uk

 

[Ratel]

Well Conor, that was some reply. I could have added that on an estate where I lived for my first 15 years wild grey partridge and a few reared pheasant were shot each year and there were at least two coveys on each ten acre patch. Never found lead in a gizzard which I cleaned out for my ferrets. Duck were eating s..t and prolific on the sludge beds of the adjacent sewage works, never suffered any ill from eating them so must be made of stronger stuff than most who worry about lead intake. It's all really just a political move.

 

[Spear Chucker]

The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting encouraged by nine organisations since February 2020 was for lead shot not lead rifle ammunition.

As regards lead rifle ammunition it was BASC that submitted technical reports to the HSE to argue for exemptions for smaller calibres and this was successful. We wanted an exemption for .243 also on the basis of technical reports and we will continue to argue for that.

As regards SD members, some have moved away from lead rifle ammunition and many are happy with lead rifle ammunition. That is their choice and perhaps not for you to dictate.

BASC is a membership organisation that serves the needs and wants of its membership very well and that is why BASC continues to be the largest shooting organisation in the UK. Perhaps drop the axe and join the fight by supporting BASC.

Join

As a member of BASC you not only get all the help and support, you are also helping support our continued fight for sustainable shooting.

basc.org.uk

"That is their choice and perhaps not for you to dictate."
Conor, are you serious? I am arguing for choice, it is you and BASC that does all the dictating around here.
Joining BASC is like a sheep handing the slaughterman the knife on the way up the ramp. Talking of sheep...I listen to them bleating about unity, the problem is the people they trust, but do not question with enough rigour, because they are lazy. They have only themselves to blame for being led up said ramp by politicos more interested in justifying their indefensible actions, than serving the collective good or even the truth.
Away.

 

[Spear Chucker]

BASC.

You would. You have to. They pay you to peddle this tripe. Sorry, that'll be the members that pay you.

 

[Spear Chucker]

You could have responded by starting your own thread for criticising the BASC .

Oh dear...

 

[Spear Chucker]

Not my words, just a cut and paste from the statement in case anyone needs to be reminded. Not hearsay or whatever else you are seeking to pass it off as.

Also, I’d be grateful if you stop using personal insults. You will note that I haven’t used any against you.

Joint statement by the Directors of the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers​

Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made.

MORE: Read the full statement from the shooting organisations

The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

MORE: What are the alternatives to lead shot?

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.

Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE.

Excellent post. Clearly illustrating why we should not have anything to do with the competent stalkers register. Clearly BASC are pushing their agenda regardless of the counter arguments or opposing views. There's democracy in action for you.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

BASC.

Most definitely not BASC. Let's be fair, they're not known to be truthful are they

You've got a good list of people now who are clearly against BASC and what they currently stand for, mainly by selling us all out yet you still refuse to see it (god knows how, you must be blind as a bat).

Just face it, you've sold us all out, left us without a paddle to achieve whatever goal it was only to discover it massively backfired (as expected by, oh yeh, us) and now refuse to acknowledge your fatal cock up. But, no doubt you will ignore this (as usual) and continue to spout BASC is the next god which is what you're currently likening them to. You're f*****g delusional Conor. You really are and your posts are further proving that point.

What show are you guys next at? I actually might take time out of my very busy schedule to come down and have a conversation in person, where you can't hide behind a keyboard and actually have to have a open and honest conversation without going over your usual speel . Maybe then we will get some answers?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

"That is their choice and perhaps not for you to dictate."
Conor, are you serious? I am arguing for choice, it is you and BASC that does all the dictating around here.
Joining BASC is like a sheep handing the slaughterman the knife on the way up the ramp. Talking of sheep...I listen to them bleating about unity, the problem is the people they trust, but do not question with enough rigour, because they are lazy. They have only themselves to blame for being led up said ramp by politicos more interested in justifying their indefensible actions, than serving the collective good or even the truth.
Away.

That's not true, you are dictating that everyone should think as you do, including 150,000 BASC members - you might look up 'God complex'. As for us all being lazy, if you have conviction in your beliefs what are you doing to change the political/policy landscape other than joining this forum in 2021 to rant about BASC and its members?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Most definitely not BASC. Let's be fair, they're not known to be truthful are they

You've got a good list of people now who are clearly against BASC and what they currently stand for, mainly by selling us all out yet you still refuse to see it (god knows how, you must be blind as a bat).

Just face it, you've sold us all out, left us without a paddle to achieve whatever goal it was only to discover it massively backfired (as expected by, oh yeh, us) and now refuse to acknowledge your fatal cock up. But, no doubt you will ignore this (as usual) and continue to spout BASC is the next god which is what you're currently likening them to. You're f*****g delusional Conor. You really are and your posts are further proving that point.

What show are you guys next at? I actually might take time out of my very busy schedule to come down and have a conversation in person, where you can't hide behind a keyboard and actually have to have a open and honest conversation without going over your usual speel . Maybe then we will get some answers?

BASC is truthful, always has been. The 'good list of people against BASC' that you refer to is maybe a dozen people on this forum. Let's get things in perspective please. Nobody has been sold out, its a tired worn out lazy argument.

How about we chat on the phone this coming week then as suits you best? I will PM you my mobile number now.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

BASC is truthful, always has been. The 'good list of people against BASC' that you refer to is maybe a dozen people on this forum. Let's get things in perspective please. Nobody has been sold out, its a tired worn out lazy argument.

How about we chat on the phone this coming week then as suits you best? I will PM you my mobile number now.

I'd much rather in person ill have a butchers and see what event I can get too