Reloading TSS 410

[Tris88]

Hi All,

Looking at reloading 410 for game days with TSS. Can anyone recommend a reloading machine, easier and more automated the better. Will likely be making 2-3k a year maybe more depending on demand from friends as well.

Also 2.5” to 3”, I was told with 20b and steel that matching chamber size to cartridge length can be important. Is this true with TSS and 410? Looking at ballistics I could get away with 2.5” cartridges, but does this have an effect on damage to the chambers of a 3” chambered 410?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[Heym SR20]

I look forward to seeing results with great interest. There are plenty 2 1/2” chambered 410’s out there, so 2 1/2” cartridge would be very welcome.

Re shorter cartridges in longer chambers - consensus in most calibres is that it doesn’t do any damage. Most modern 12 and 20 bores are 3” chambered. Not so much that they are designed ti be fed a diet of heavily loaded 3” cartridges (most would kick like hell), but so that they are Bubba Proof.

Having watched quite a few slow motion videos of shot leaving the barrels, what is clear to me is that shot is in the shot cup, so it never actually comes into contact with the barrel walls. And a cup of shot is compressible.

I would love to know if any body makes 410 dies that fit into a normal rifle press. I will reload 410, but don’t want to make investment into completely different kit.

Good luck. I suspect you might have a lot of customers.

Edit: just looking at the Clay and Game website - their recommendation is that TSS should only be shot is cases appropriate to chamber length. Bismuth on the other hand is softer and more suitable for older guns. Probably better for a 2 1/2” 410.

Bismuth Shot

brittle bismuth shot for non-toxic loading.

www.claygame.co.uk

 

[timbrayford]

It might be worth enquiring with Clay & Game to see if they have any data on this?

 

[enfieldspares]

I look forward to seeing results with great interest. There are plenty 2 1/2” chambered 410’s out there, so 2 1/2” cartridge would be very welcome.

Re shorter cartridges in longer chambers - consensus in most calibres is that it doesn’t do any damage. Most modern 12 and 20 bores are 3” chambered. Not so much that they are designed ti be fed a diet of heavily loaded 3” cartridges (most would kick like hell), but so that they are Bubba Proof.

Having watched quite a few slow motion videos of shot leaving the barrels, what is clear to me is that shot is in the shot cup, so it never actually comes into contact with the barrel walls. And a cup of shot is compressible.

I would love to know if any body makes 410 dies that fit into a normal rifle press. I will reload 410, but don’t want to make investment into completely different kit.

Good luck. I suspect you might have a lot of customers.

Edit: just looking at the Clay and Game website - their recommendation is that TSS should only be shot is cases appropriate to chamber length. Bismuth on the other hand is softer and more suitable for older guns. Probably better for a 2 1/2” 410.

Bismuth Shot

brittle bismuth shot for non-toxic loading.

www.claygame.co.uk

I did think about using 9.3x74R dies as a starting point. Only as I had a set cheap so could sacrifice them to ream out.

In reality the only thing needed is something to size down the case head and case body. So straight through dies would suffice. That may mean something such as .45 ACP carbide sizing die?

Or for shorter cases .444 Marlin dies? Then use what would be the seat an crimp die (sufficiently modified at its top end) to enable you to seat a wad on the powder and charge the shot? The withdraw the charged, wadded and shotted case and close with an old school bench clamped type roll crimp die?

 

[Tris88]

I think because steel is so unforgiving, it can damage the forcing cone. That’s why it’s supposed to be matched to size, just interested in some real world application of this, I suppose some wildfowl guns may have tried it.

 

[Smellydog]

I think you are in for a shock!
Reloading once fired 410 is problematic.

You'd need virgin case's to get up to any kind of speed for high number production.

It's one thing to do it as a hobby where upon trashed cases can be discarded but large scale production needs specialist machinery.

 

[Liveonce]

as said for any automated loading machine you are looking at new cases to work at their best, a few are made in .410
like the MEC 9000GN however you may struggle to get cases and wads suitable for steel shot or TSS plus rumour has it china are no longer exporting TSS shot and the USA TPS wads which are not biodegradable should that matter.

Will be an interesting but challenging project and dread to think what the final cost of a cartridge would be.

Also bear in mind the little .410 is very much higher pressure that a 12gauge so components have to be fit for purpose otherwise you risk damaging the gun especially with TSS.

 

[Tris88]

Sorry when I said reloading I should probably has said loading. I have no intention of reloading the used cases. At the cost of pence I’m not interested in cleaning the dirt off them at the end of a wet game day.

Would we consider 3k cartridges large scale production.

I understand set up costs will be high, but cartridge costs will considerably less than getting TSS loaded by someone else.

Interesting about china not exporting anymore, for this to work well I’d really want to buy in batches of 100kg or more.

It’s all about keeping 410 alive for me.

 

[Smellydog]

It’s all about keeping 410 alive for me.

Superb.

I fully intend to keep mine alive but small scale.

 

[Liveonce]

Sorry when I said reloading I should probably has said loading. I have no intention of reloading the used cases. At the cost of pence I’m not interested in cleaning the dirt off them at the end of a wet game day.

Would we consider 3k cartridges large scale production.

I understand set up costs will be high, but cartridge costs will considerably less than getting TSS loaded by someone else.

Interesting about china not exporting anymore, for this to work well I’d really want to buy in batches of 100kg or more.

It’s all about keeping 410 alive for me.

Why TSS? why not bismuth? you can then load with fibre wads and the shot is far more gun friendly then TSS

Why would you want to buy TSS in 100kg lots for 3,000 .410 cartridges? that’s 33.3kg per 1000 you will not get that quantity of TSS in a .410 case, guess it would give you about 7 years of shot, as most look to use 14gm of 2mm diameter TSS.

New cases are about £200 per thousand, then TSS wads if they every arrive back in the U.K. then, powder then the TSS i guess you could be at about £5 a shot.

I understand like smellydog wanting to keep the .410 alive for the occasional use and the pleasure in doing so and for the wild fowling where it works due to the few shots generally fired.

Then loading for a friend’s using the shot (TSS) most likely to damage a gun, hope they are good friends.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Tss is fantastic but eye wateringly expensive...... and if you load it wrong your going to ruin guns.

The other con is no bio wads suitable or avaliable for it.

Ref cranking reloaded ammo out, nothing really beats a ponsness warren 800 or 900 series machine tbh

You will have alot of outlay for not a lot of gains tbh, id chat with steve over at clay and game but really id say tss is only suitable for small scale l, bespoke loads for the foreshore

 

[Liveonce]

you really need a press with live tooling closure, ie rotating spinner to close .410 new cases, so the likes of the OMV simply machine.

 

[Heym SR20]

Tss is fantastic but eye wateringly expensive...... and if you load it wrong your going to ruin guns.

The other con is no bio wads suitable or avaliable for it.

Ref cranking reloaded ammo out, nothing really beats a ponsness warren 800 or 900 series machine tbh

You will have alot of outlay for not a lot of gains tbh, id chat with steve over at clay and game but really id say tss is only suitable for small scale l, bespoke loads for the foreshore

Looking at Clay and Game shot prices,

10kg of lead - £47.50. (£4.75 per kg)
5kg of steel - £19.60 (£4.90 per kg)
5kg of copper plated lead shot - £32.50 (£6.50 per kg)
5kg of copper plated steel - £23.40 (£4.68 per kg)
1kg of Bismuth - £50.00
1kg of Tungsten -£90.00

 

[Tris88]

Tss is fantastic but eye wateringly expensive...... and if you load it wrong your going to ruin guns.

The other con is no bio wads suitable or avaliable for it.

Ref cranking reloaded ammo out, nothing really beats a ponsness warren 800 or 900 series machine tbh

You will have alot of outlay for not a lot of gains tbh, id chat with steve over at clay and game but really id say tss is only suitable for small scale l, bespoke loads for the foreshore

Obviously I wouldn't be stockpiling a metric ton of lead and doing it that way either

I'll give clay and game a call. Not really looking to make much of a saving, just not many options at the moment, hopefully Hull will come out with a bismuth load soon.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Used to get some of the experimental stuff from a friend of ours who worked at hull cartridge. At the time bismith were better than steel and also at the time bismuth was somewhat affordable but now the propperley loaded HV steel with bio wads like game bore is very very good. And alot cheaper so thats the direction I will be going

 

[Tris88]

Used to get some of the experimental stuff from a friend of ours who worked at hull cartridge. At the time bismith were better than steel and also at the time bismuth was somewhat affordable but now the propperley loaded HV steel with bio wads like game bore is very very good. And alot cheaper so thats the direction I will be going

In 410?

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

In 410?

That was in 12,

There will be stuff in 410 at some point i would say but its the bottom of the pecking order in terms of production.

I know hull are developing busimuth in 410 and im sure gamebore already have stuff out

 

[Tris88]

Have gamebore sorted out their wads? I tried them on a hot peg with a loader last year, not good, horrible residue, can't image they would be good with the 410. Hull seem to be much better on the wads.

 

[Ratcatcher]

Have gamebore sorted out their wads? I tried them on a hot peg with a loader last year, not good, horrible residue, can't image they would be good with the 410. Hull seem to be much better on the wads.

I had the same problem with 20b, I was given a few joker cartridges with solid copper shot, haven't tried them yet, but can't see why they shouldn't work ( apart from £1400/1000!)

 

[Smellydog]

I had the same problem with 20b, I was given a few joker cartridges with solid copper shot, haven't tried them yet, but can't see why they shouldn't work ( apart from £1400/1000!)

So that's why they are called Joker!!