Rewilding

[rem284]

The Isle of Wight is one of the few areas of the country that has red squirrels but no greys. A pine marten introduction/reintroduction was considered by NE but dismissed because of potential predation on the reds.

Yes, but in other areas they just told the Pine Martins only to eat grey squirrels

 

[angusb1]

I like the idea of increased biodiversity. Are we going to put measures in place to protect species that are still here but are in decline. Or are we going to forget them and spend time and money on bringing species that are no longer in Britain back.

I think this is a really important point about the rewilding idea. Who should be the arbiter of what is right and which species we should be encouraging? Why are we doing this? There has always been a balance between the interests of the different groups who use and inhabit the natural environment, agriculture has shaped our natural environment for thousands of years and what we currently have is largely due to agriculture.

Personally I see the diversity we had in much of the uk maybe 100 years ago as a better environment than what we have now. I am lucky to live in a place where it is quite wet and we are on clay soil so it is waterlogged for large parts of the year, hence it is no good for arable farming and mixed use with its small fields and plentiful hedgerows predominates. However, this is just my opinion and I am not reliant upon agriculture for my living so what does my opinion count for? I am not arrogant enough to assume that I know best and force my opinion onto others through policy like some do and this is the problem I have with the rewilding movement, they often do exactly this with what seems to me to be a skewed approach to make any science justify their agenda and they take little notice of people who live and work on the land using methods which have worked for centuries.

Many predators are extinct in the UK because we made them so and reintroducing them could lead to the extinction of other species which are currently in decline as well as reminding us why we made them extinct in the first place.

 

[Mungo]

Sounds like a wildlife trust, clueless middle class do-gooders!

Er… in this case, try Liverpudlian gangsters.

 

[nun_hunter]

Which I think in a kind of way summarises why the guerilla rewilders take the approach they do.

They realise that, if they can release a sufficient number of a given species into the environment, then the political argument shifts from "should we release this species into the wild?" to "this species is in the wild, so now we need to start talking about how we manage protect the ones that are already there".

The cynic in me suspects that, once they have introduced a species (whether legally or otherwise) then they realise it is a fait accompli that it will be forever protected. In the process the illegal rewilders have achieved exactly what they always wanted, and get to avoid any of the consequences.

To be honest my only surprise is that illegal releases have not been far more common.

The majority of wild releases I've read about are deer and other game being taken to areas they were not previously found in. More than likely by those who wish to eat/hunt them.

There are many people on here who lament they don't have deer to shoot and would love some to make there way to their area. When pockets of Muntjac spring up in isolated locations far from established populations they were unlikely to have hitched a ride in a trailer all by themselves.

I'd personally be looking at unscrupulous deer stalkers and hunters for the majority of illegal releases rather than unscrupulous rewilders. Obviously the more iconic or rare releases such as beavers are likely done by rewilders but while making the news I doubt they make up the majority of overall illegal releases.

 

[Freeforester]

Whilst surfing Farcebook, I came across this poetic view of the situation, that seems to summarise the emerging situation......

The New Clearance #2 by Iain Mackay

They come not now with fire and blade,
But dressed in green, with deals well made.
They speak of "rewilding", "climate goals",
Yet tear the heart from Highland souls.

No more the stalker tracks the hill,
His rifle cold, his bothy still.
The ghillie’s rod, the shepherd’s dog,
Lie idle in the creeping fog.

Peatlands fenced with steel and lies,
To sell the air to foreign skies.
Carbon stored and credits traded,
While lives and legacies are faded.

The red deer fall in bloody ranks,
Not for food, nor sport, nor thanks,
But culled like vermin, cast away,
So saplings might have room to sway.

No dance of hoof on ridge or scree,
Just silence now, for every tree.
A woodland rising, rich and green—
But bought by hands unseen, unclean.

The Danish tycoon, the Russian heir,
Buy glens like stocks with cold-eyed care.
They praise the wild, the noble land,
But never lift a working hand.

They do not speak the Gaelic tongue,
Nor know the songs our grandfolk sung.
Yet write the rules, and sign the lease,
And call it “progress,” “hope,” or “peace.”

The crofter’s roof caves in with rain,
The keeper’s track turns wild again.
The pub is shut, the school is bare—
What future grows when none live there?

They preach a “natural” rebirth,
But strip the land of rooted worth.
A hill is not a hill alone—
It's men and women, stone by stone.

This is no healing of the glen,
When land forgets the touch of men.
Greenwashed theft, a new disguise,
Of ancient grief in modern guise.

So mark this truth in storm and soil:
That land must live by native toil.
Let birch and beaver find their place—
But not at cost of the Highland race

How it was viewed 20 years ago:

 

[willie_gunn]

The majority of wild releases I've read about are deer and other game being taken to areas they were not previously found in. More than likely by those who wish to eat/hunt them.

There are many people on here who lament they don't have deer to shoot and would love some to make there way to their area. When pockets of Muntjac spring up in isolated locations far from established populations they were unlikely to have hitched a ride in a trailer all by themselves.

I'd personally be looking at unscrupulous deer stalkers and hunters for the majority of illegal releases rather than unscrupulous rewilders. Obviously the more iconic or rare releases such as beavers are likely done by rewilders but while making the news I doubt they make up the majority of overall illegal releases.

I’d be interested to see those articles on deer and other game being released by unscrupulous deer stalkers, so please do post the links to them.

 

[Mungo]

I’d be interested to see those articles on deer and other game being released by unscrupulous deer stalkers, so please do post the links to them.

You really think muntjac have spread to all their current range unassisted?

Or the East Lothian fallow?

 

[willie_gunn]

You really think muntjac have spread to all their current range unassisted?

Or the East Lothian fallow?

Where did I ever say that?

Muntjac migration via Transit van has been talked about for years, however mostly via the anecdotal “a mate in the pub told me….”.

As the majority of releases @nun_hunter refers to are in articles, I’d like to have a read of them.

 

[Apthorpe]

Where did I ever say that?

Muntjac migration via Transit van has been talked about for years, however mostly via the anecdotal “a mate in the pub told me….”.

As the majority of releases @nun_hunter refers to are in articles, I’d like to have a read of them.

I think it far more likely that the large majority of illegal releases are done by animal activists of one form or another - illegal releases of foxes, squirrel, vermin etc, translocations of urban foxes to new areas, illegal releases of animals after veterinary treatment, animal liberation performances and so on.

In any event, there is no point in expending thought over an immeasurable. It's already illegal and its obvious that the police, even in an ideal world couldn't detect it adequately.

 

[nun_hunter]

I’d be interested to see those articles on deer and other game being released by unscrupulous deer stalkers, so please do post the links to them.

I didn't say articles. I've read on here and other forums as well about populations of deer well outside any natural transportation. The BDS deer map of the UK for example as well as wild boar. If a population of muntjac suddenly appears 200 miles away from the nearest established population, especially crossing open sea then I don't think it is a stretch to believe they have been taken there and released by humans.

Yes, it could be lefty tree hugging rewilders but I think far more likely is someone who wants to hunt them. I don't see why it's so far fetched for you to see that there is a good, probably more likely chance that releasing animals across the country could be by those who have an interest in them being somewhere new, ie stalkers wanting their own sport or landowners wanting a novel income.

Seeing as most outdoor folk grew up being involved with or surrounded by game shoots where thousands of non native birds are released every year for sport it's not a stretch to think that some of them wouldn't have a moral or environmental issue with releasing deer or boar with a hope they establish and provide some good sport

 

[Nickb]

Where did I ever say that?

Muntjac migration via Transit van has been talked about for years, however mostly via the anecdotal “a mate in the pub told me….”.

As the majority of releases @nun_hunter refers to are in articles, I’d like to have a read of them.

I know for certain lurchers boys relocating muntjac up North.

 

[wildfowler.250]

The majority of wild releases I've read about are deer and other game being taken to areas they were not previously found in. More than likely by those who wish to eat/hunt them.

There are many people on here who lament they don't have deer to shoot and would love some to make there way to their area. When pockets of Muntjac spring up in isolated locations far from established populations they were unlikely to have hitched a ride in a trailer all by themselves.

I'd personally be looking at unscrupulous deer stalkers and hunters for the majority of illegal releases rather than unscrupulous rewilders. Obviously the more iconic or rare releases such as beavers are likely done by rewilders but while making the news I doubt they make up the majority of overall illegal releases.

I wouldn’t condone people moving muntjac but it’s not quite in the same ball park as people releasing lynx which currently don’t live in the wild. The horse has bolted for muntjac control

 

[nun_hunter]

I wouldn’t condone people moving muntjac but it’s not quite in the same ball park as people releasing lynx which currently don’t live in the wild. The horse has bolted for muntjac control

Totally agree, especially the fact the Lynx were almost tame pets with no ability to survive in the wild.

I was more referring to the number of releases that go on that aren't exciting newsworthy predators but make up the bulk of illegal releases.

 

[timbrayford]

I didn't say articles. I've read on here and other forums as well about populations of deer well outside any natural transportation. The BDS deer map of the UK for example as well as wild boar. If a population of muntjac suddenly appears 200 miles away from the nearest established population, especially crossing open sea then I don't think it is a stretch to believe they have been taken there and released by humans.

Yes, it could be lefty tree hugging rewilders but I think far more likely is someone who wants to hunt them. I don't see why it's so far fetched for you to see that there is a good, probably more likely chance that releasing animals across the country could be by those who have an interest in them being somewhere new, ie stalkers wanting their own sport or landowners wanting a novel income.

Seeing as most outdoor folk grew up being involved with or surrounded by game shoots where thousands of non native birds are released every year for sport it's not a stretch to think that some of them wouldn't have a moral or environmental issue with releasing deer or boar with a hope they establish and provide some good sport

Fallow deer , Norman introduction, south of England Roe deer, 18/19th century reintroduction, New Forest Red deer, 1960s reintroduction, Muntjac, CWD, Sika, all introduced, same for Rainbow trout, Pheasants and red legged Partridge.Do we really want to return to the days of the feudal overlords with the ordinary people excluded from harvesting wild game?

 

[VSS]

.Do we really want to return to the days of the feudal overlords with the ordinary people excluded from harvesting wild game?

Those days have never gone away.
Any "ordinary" person (your terminology, not mine) who wishes to harvest wild game still has to seek permission from the holder of the sporting rights to the land over which he (or she) wishes to hunt.
Unless you are the owner of the sporting rights (or the owner of the land, in the case of deer) you're effectively excluded unless specifically granted permission (or, in the case of deer, unless certain specific criteria are met).

 

[timbrayford]

Those days have never gone away.
Any "ordinary" person (your terminology, not mine) who wishes to harvest wild game still has to seek permission from the holder of the sporting rights to the land over which he (or she) wishes to hunt.
Unless you are the owner of the sporting rights (or the owner of the land, in the case of deer) you're effectively excluded unless specifically granted permission (or, in the case of deer, unless certain specific criteria are met).

Nevertheless ordinary people do have access to introduced game at a reasonable cost. The expensive quarry appears to be grouse.

 

[countrryboy]

I know for certain lurchers boys relocating muntjac up North.

I mind when i was a kid 1 off the old cumbrain beaters would talk about the old days, im guessing 50s or 60s ish.

Him and his mates would hitch hike to a truck stop on A6 get a lift down south to an area with badgers.
Dig badgers all day and bring a couple back up with them to release in cumbria.
He reckoned many of the cumbrain badgers were transported and released by old terrier men.

 

[Nickb]

He reckoned many of the cumbrain badgers were transported and released by old terrier men.

Yep I heard the same from a terrierman when I was following the Ullswater one day.
Never used to hear of them in the lakes much until they started being released.

 

[countrryboy]

Im pretty cynical with most uk conservation nowadays.
Most is either a con or a scam were different experts try to get their own way for their pet project no matter the cost to other species.
Their is very little if any joined up thinking.

Ive worked in peatland restoration and the money they are throwing at that is unbelievable.
Ive felled whole woods of prime squirrel habitat while their planting new woodland over the fence.
Or leaving cracking old grand father pine trees in the middle of a bog.
Wot do they thinks going to happen? Even if it doesnae blow over (which it will) wots the point uve just spent a fortune cutting the trees down and rewetting it so why encourage more?
Just no thought at all.
Cut a few cracking stunted old bog oaks, absolute travesty really


Even on upland rewilding.
When the trees start to grow does that not stop the carbon capture?
Which is the buzz word nowadys.
Also places like Langholm moor which is a SPA for HHs they want to rewild it and let trees grow.
Where are the HHs going to hunt?
Just defeats all logic.
Same with the many waders that now rely on grouse moors for breeding, their not going to breed well once the trees start growing and predator management stops..

I know grouse management and muirburn is completely out of fashion, but if u want upland boidiversity there is no better way.
75% of the worlds moorlands are in uk.
Esp in scotland grouse management is very expensive and ur very lucky if u even get to shoot any grouse.
The owners spend vast amounts of cash in the knowledge they will likely never shoot grouse on their moor, but know it is the right thing to do.

I was involved with the local red squirrel group.
The SWT really push the studies which show where PMs are u get reds in higher numbers.
Yes the PM will est more greys than reds but not enoigh to make a real difference.
But completely ignoring the 2 evolved to live in the same habitat and PM are just a good indicator of prime red habitat.
The local area has had a shed load of cash over last 20 yrs, the vast vast majority has been wasted on 'project officers' that do fcuk all real good, stay 2 yrars and move to the next project officer job.
Just a merry go round shaking the old money tree.
Wot they need is more FT trappers, it is that simple.

If u really want to increase boidiversity across the whole uk, put a bounty on crows, magpies and tell cat owners their cats have ro stay inside their property with a bell on collar.
Within 1 breeding season garden birds would be absolutely thriving.
Their is a nature resrve right in the heart of wellington where all sorts of bird thriving since they fenced the cats out..

If u look at the old game records folk were shooting grey partridge and even black grouse in most parts of the uk.
The main reason is purely predation not habitat loss.

 

[angusb1]

No doubt cats and corvids do a huge amount of damage to native wildlife