Rook Rifle Conversions

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moeggesit said:
Unless it’s worn out, don’t change it.

Obsolete calibre is just that, once it’s on FAC (a simple variation and statement to FLO) you can make small quantities of ammunition, typically for study and testing.

You may have to make the cases and also often for those you mentioned, have a special mold made and custom dies..

If you want something you can feed easily you can buy a .410 converted rook and have it sleeved to something like .32ACP. Cost can be high, like any other re-barrel but the doner (.410) should be very cheap or free.

Trouble with most old pre-1900 is that it’s only really suitable for black powder and frequent use with nitro powder will excessive stress the metal. i.e. it’s fine for black powder and occasional use but not frequent and persistent target shooting. Needs to be selected carefully.
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Thanks. Lots to consider. Always fancied a rook rifle. I do have black licence, but a 22 hornet might be nice.
 
I have had several rook and rabbit rifles placed upon my certificate most have looked the part BUT the barrels have been badly pitted and the rifling was very very worn .Corrosive black powder and mercuric primers😱

Some even carry the names of famous makers but they incur a steep premium.

The other thing to remember is that the “steel” can become crystalline and brittle . I hope you choose a good one 🤞. The martini actioned 310 cadets or Sherwood’s are more robust and a joy to shoot!

I was on the look out for one that had been converted to .32 smith and Wesson long …………they are out there along with honest politicians 😆😆😆😁………….but I never found one!
 
hammo said:
Roughly speaking, what is the cost and hoops to jump through; to get an obsolete cal rook rifle sleeved?
Or is loading for the original cal a viable option, say .300 or .310?
Not meaning to hijack your thread, but really interested!
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There are a number of individuals who do shoot Rook rifles in the original calibres. These are put on the FAC. Cases are available from the likes of Bertram or can formed from other brass. Dies can be a challenge but again can be made.

Sleeving is doable, and there are a few but diminishing number who can do this. It’s not difficult per se, just takes time. The biggest embuggerance is the extractor and getting everything jointed correctly. This is proper old school gunsmithing - the same sorts of skills to rejoint a fine double gun.

It then needs to pass proof.
 
Yes Kranks have .310 and .300 rook brass. Would like to find a rifle with reasonable bore and use as is. Might be a challenge. Auction possibly a good source? Can cast my own bullets once a mould sourced or fabricated. I don't want to spend a fortune on a London best gun.
Sounds like I would need to stick with black powder loads.
 
@hammo I currently use a .310 cadet rifle . Cases can be made from 32-20 or 7.62 Nagant. Much cheaper than buying head stamped 310 Cadet. The nagant can be used without thinning the rim. It is very pleasant to shoot and very accurate with the correct heeled bullets .

The 310 Cadet was designed for smokeless powders originally a powder called cadet Neonite. There are several rifles and reloading gear coming up in the Wilson 55 and Holts auctions.

I will advise that I bought a wonderful looking scoped H+H .360 top lever got it on my license only to find out it had been butchered and the chamber was ruined when it arrived …………… If you can look and shoulder the rifle and bore scope it if you intend to put it on your certificate and use it. Caveat emptor!

Good luck Rookandrabbit 👍
 
There is the catch, I have never been to an auction. Viewing listings online is easy enough, but rarely a mention of bore condition, understandable as they are being sold as obsolete.
I have dipped my toe in the water and put a bid on one I like, but expect to be outbid - and I don't want to get sucked into a bidding frenzy, only to find the gun is not what I hoped for - as above!
Good news that the cadet was smokeless, should be fine with a light charge then.
 
@hammo Wilson 55 Auction house give detailed condition reports other auctioneers give a cursory description of the outside.
I have been gutted on using my hard earned cash to buy top of the range rifles from London makers when they were probably made in Birmingham by “The Trade” with Adam’s and Tate barrels and marked by an expensive posh retailer. I think a lot of thought 💭is put into the wording of the descriptions of items in auction

An awful lot of the older rifles have had refinishes, repairs, bodges, homemade improvements, replaced stocks etc and are “pigs with lipstick 💋”…………as looks fantastic but on closer examination worn out and abused.

Don’t forget most Rook and Rabbit rifles are over 100 years old and some made with iron for black powder use only.

Before you splurge your money could I recommend the late Colin Greenwood’s book, The Classic British Rook and Rabbit Rifle.

I hope you find an excellent rifle for your needs……. a good one is a pure joy, lightweight accurate and to use a piece of history and bring it back to life, marvellous ,…………..

I hope you don’t think I am teaching you to suck eggs but it’s just my experiences, other members on the forum can offer details of conversions to more readily available modern chambering ( I always wanted a .32 smith and Wesson long chambered Rook rifle) or their experiences with their own rook rifles.

Regards Rookandrabbit
 
Wonderful collection @Fosbery Holster . I did particularly prefer to collect scoped top lever R+R rifles . I was fortunate to get a few cased ones. Never went larger than .360 I wanted a number 5 but it was at best .360 2.25 ……..at best because the chamber had been butchered🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄.

I started off with the .297/230 morris but it was very fiddly making and reloading the cartridges.

Out of curiosity did the safety work correctly on your martini?

Stunning top lever has it been restocked?as it is a stunning bit of wood……..( I have seen some coloured with Indian ink to look the part😱🙄😱🙄😱) Has it been sleeved to .22 LR.

I sold my rifles via Holts, John Carlin j.c militaria and Wilson55.

I just have a bog standard martini cadet in .310 on my license at the min.


P.s have you ever seen a R+R rifle in .32 s+w long? They are out there but very very rare not the .32 cf of which there are a few coming up in the next auctions.

Regards Rookandrabbit.
 
There were others that unfortunately l didn’t keep photographs of after selling
them. One of them that shot rather well was a Holland and Holland in .300, point it in the right direction and it would take the black out, that one was cased.

Most Rook & Rabbit rifles were made by Birmingham Gunmakers then the retailer’s would have their name engraved on them that included the top names.

I had three (l think) in .380 they shot well with a deep hollow based bullets, neve did have a .360.

The Martini actioned Rooks safety worked correctly.

The cased top lever in the photo was my Westley Richards with Aldis scope, and yes it was sleeved to .22lr (Parkerifled), apart from calibre conversion it was original built in 1903 in house by Westley, the only maker that built their own.
I sold it back to Westley Richards they couldn’t wait to get their hands on it.

I have kept a Martini Rook, engraved Pape of Newcastle, that l came second with shooting running boar on two occasions.

Never did see a R+R in .32 whilst collecting and shooting them, you know what to look out for regarding chambers and pitting, black powder did take its toll.

@Rookandrabbit

Regards,

Fosbery.
 
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@Fosbery Holster sounds as though we may have bid against each other in the past .😳😳Most of the martini actioned rifles I saw never had a working safety . You certainly had some beautiful rifles there !
Never got to own a WESTLY RICHARDS!
I always remember they had a wonderful 297/250 cased top lever on their blog stunning similar to yours!
Yes H+H did make nice rifles it’s just the people who butchered them that I take umbrage with. I even had one which was marked “all the FIELDS trials” 😳😳😳😳😳😳 nice try……at least it had correct spelling unlike some dubious imports😆😆😆😁


Out of curiosity what calibre were the snider actioned rifles?
Regards Rookandrabbit
 
Rookandrabbit said:
@Fosbery Holster sounds as though we may have bid against each other in the past .😳😳Most of the martini actioned rifles I saw never had a working safety . You certainly had some beautiful rifles there !
Never got to own a WESTLY RICHARDS!
I always remember they had a wonderful 297/250 cased top lever on their blog stunning similar to yours!
Yes H+H did make nice rifles it’s just the people who butchered them that I take umbrage with. I even had one which was marked “all the FIELDS trials” 😳😳😳😳😳😳 nice try……at least it had correct spelling unlike some dubious imports😆😆😆😁


Out of curiosity what calibre were the snider actioned rifles?
Regards Rookandrabbit
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All my rifles were bought locally from various sources apart from my first Rook that l bought from auction, that was my downfall.

The Snider Rook was .380 in beautiful condition and shot wonderfully.

My Holland had the same legend on the top rib that was quite correct they did win field trials at the time.

There was a chap that got in touch with me, a collector, who bought all my remaining accessories and a couple of original cases, he also bought all my loading gear.

If you Google “Westley Richards Rook rifle” you will find an article by the gun room manager all about my Westley Rook, giving its provenance and history.

Fosbery.
 
I forgot to mention that the Westley Rook you referred to belonged to “Sir Johnny Scott”, he traded it in for a Westley 20 bore shotgun for his sons birthday.

Rare rifles indeed.

I met Sir Johnny at the Lowther game fair in the BASC hospitality tent and we spoke about his old Rook rifle amongst other things.
 
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