RS60 and RS62 in 6.5 Creedmoor with 147 ELDM

[nun_hunter]

Just after some advice/opinions on the two powders with the 147 grain Hornady ELDM bullet. I have emailed RS direct and they have recommended RS60 for this combination and a friend has run it through Quickload for me too and also suggested this.

The RS60 appears to be "better" due to more case fill, higher MV and a 100% burn but my concern is that everything I have read suggests RS60 is a hotter powder (even says this on the RS website) and will shorten the barrel life. Also the RS website recommends RS60 for light to medium weight bullets.

My question is will the "shorter" barrel life be that much of an issue for me shooting no more than a couple of hundred rounds a year? Has anyone used these powders in in any rifle and shot enough to notice a difference?

Or am I way over thinking this?

 

[Luckydan]

I use RS62 in my Creedmoor with 143 ELD X and 140 Hybrids with good results, consistently small groups and single figure ES at 2800 fps. It gives more velocity than most powders without the high temperatures of RS60 which a mate has used to great effect, but with significantly shortened barrel life. I didn’t figure the extra few fps was worth 30 or 40% less barrel life. My barrel is still spot on at 1000 rounds, his was about done at that.

 

[JTO]

From what has been posted on various forums, if you try to get the most out of RS60, you can expect the barrel to last about 1000 rounds. That's getting on towards £1 a round for barrel wear.

 

[Malxwal]

It would be great if someone could post a real experience of RS60 over the useful life of a barrel, with details of its use.

 

[User00033]

You are probably well aware of this but almost all the discussion about this cartridge and bullet combination I’ve read focuses on H4350 as the best performing powder, specifically because of the heavy bullet. Down this way I haven’t come across anyone using anything other than H4350. Don’t know if you have availability issues with Hodgdon in the UK. The rifle I have been using in 6.5CM and the 143gr ELD-X is delivering outstanding accuracy and killing power. Still waiting for the stock for mine to arrive ...

 

[25 Sharps]

You are probably well aware of this but almost all the discussion about this cartridge and bullet combination I’ve read focuses on H4350 as the best performing powder, specifically because of the heavy bullet. Down this way I haven’t come across anyone using anything other than H4350. Don’t know if you have availability issues with Hodgdon in the UK. The rifle I have been using in 6.5CM and the 143gr ELD-X is delivering outstanding accuracy and killing power. Still waiting for the stock for mine to arrive ...

New chemical regulations from Europe have banned a huge range of hodgdon powders, H350 included so once current stocks are gone no more will be imported.

I'm getting 2670 fps with a 139 scenar with mine over N160, I am looking at RS60 with the same bullet but that will be for 1000 yards which we only shoot a few times a year.

 

[Sauer90]

Personally don't have a problem with RS60. Was going to post an explanation, just cannot be arsed.
If you want to swallow the hype from forums...

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

unless you are planning shooting 20 shot strings on a regular basis and 4000 rounds
or 5000 deer....

you won't notice the difference

barrels don't fall of a cliff with regards to accuracy as the throat erodes

your 1/4 MOA rifle becomes a 3/8 MOA rifle
your 3/8 MOA becomes a 1/2MOA etc etc

In hunting terms and ranges most people won't notice that difference either in the field or at the range unless your rifle and loading is bench rest material the variables are so high it would be extremely difficult to differentiate between a slight shift in group size and a change in environmentals or components

 

[25 Sharps]

unless you are planning shooting 20 shot strings on a regular basis and 4000 rounds
or 5000 deer....

you won't notice the difference

barrels don't fall of a cliff with regards to accuracy as the throat erodes

your 1/4 MOA rifle becomes a 3/8 MOA rifle
your 3/8 MOA becomes a 1/2MOA etc etc

In hunting terms and ranges most people won't notice that difference either in the field or at the range unless your rifle and loading is bench rest material the variables are so high it would be extremely difficult to differentiate between a slight shift in group size and a change in environmentals or components

My thoughts exactly now I've been talked down from the internet hype, main reason I'm sticking with the N160 for shorter range is i got a good deal on a 3.5 kg tub. Also planning on loading some 129 gr interlocks over RS60 for deer out of the same rifle.

 

[nun_hunter]

Thanks for the replies. Pretty much confirmed what I thought which is the amount of shooting I will be doing barrel wear shouldn't really be a concern.

 

[JTO]

Chatting to a chap at Bisley today. He reckons he only uses RS60 for competitions, he practices with something else to save his barrel.
He also said that if he uses his normal RS60 load on a hot June day, he gets blown primers.
I presume he is talking about 284W F-Class loads.

 

[Laurie]

RS60 (same thing as Alliant Reloder 17) provides part of its extra performance from having nitroglycerin infused into the nitrocellulose kernels (as per the Viht N500 series, the Finns originally buying the technology from RS' manufacturer Nitrochemie). It and other RS high-energy numbers (RS40, RS52, RS70 and RS80 that we see) are also made with a unique deterrents infusion technique called 'EI' that sees the deterrent chemicals which slow the initial burn and are crucial in determining burning rate and propellant performance spread much deeper and last longer in the early stages of charge combustion than applies to simple kernel coating which is what everybody else uses.

Between the two techniques, some cartridges can obtain spectacular MV increases in full-pressure loads: 6XC, 284 Win and the short magnums among others. The XC and 284 get another 200 fps in target length barrels with 105/115gn and 180gn weight class bullets respectively. When RS60 in its Re17 form first appeared in the USA in early 2008, shooters went mad for it and a lot of matches were won with Re17 based loads.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=RL17&submit=Search

Alliant Reloder 17

Alliant Re33 (Reload Swiss RS80) is providing unapproachable MVs to many large rifle cartridge ELR shooters in things like heavy-bullet 338LM loads.

The headline for the features in the second of these search pieces says it all:
Alliant Reloder 17
State-of-the-Art Powder Delivers Amazing Velocities


Then later in the year the downsides started to be reported. High volume match shooters using full-house loads started to get barrel collapse at half the round count they were expecting. In the case of these two cartridges that was at around 1,000-1,200 rounds instead of 2,000 or a bit more.

........... barrels don't fall of a cliff with regards to accuracy as the throat erodes [Edinburgh Rifles]

No, they don't with loads using cool burning powders in moderate pressure loads and where the firing rate is slow, but they very frequently do for maximum pressure load shooters where barrels run hot. The most common problems are where coppering just ahead of the throat becomes endemic and a barrel goes from being spotlessly clean to heavily coppered within the course of a match stage, or over the course of several stages in a day's competition shooting. If really bad, pressures go through the roof leading to blown primers and competitor retirement. The other common occurrence is that the (stainless) barrel ahead of the chamber 'firecracks' badly and when it reaches a certain point with loads like this, a chunk of land is literally burned or blown out leaving a 'pothole' behind. These things really don't happen with moderate pressure loads in chrome-moly barrels with their tough steel, especially modern hammer-forged examples where the process induces a great deal of surface work hardening, but are very common at relatively low round counts in stainless match barrels cut from soft 416R stainless blanks.

The other issue that plagues most high-energy powders, temperature sensitivity, soon also arose with many American shooters finding their spring / early summer worked up loads produced seriously excessive pressures in high summer hot weather. This isn't so much of a worry here, although even our climate can produce problems occasionally.

Within a year, the word in many US circles was Re17 is poison, don't touch it and there was a mass return to Hodgdon / ADI powders - H. VarGet, H4350 and H4831sc as required by the cartridge. Temperature sensitivity aside where Re17/RS60 IS far inferior to the similar burning rate H4350, this was an unfair conclusion by many. Simply dropping charges to take MVs down to the next accuracy node below absolute maximum would have overcome most of the problem and still given a useful MV increase. The EI powders tend to be very flexible numbers with wide pressure tolerance ranges and often suitable for multiple cartridges, more so than the Viht N500 grades IMO, and very much more flexible than ball types. IME, Reload Swiss RS52 is very bit as flexible as H. VarGet and has exactly the same applications - ie a huge range of cartridges.

So far as the 6.5X47L, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 260 Rem trio go, American PRS competition shooters are getting 2,300-2,500 rounds barrel life despite using full-house pressure charges, heavy bullets, and shooting in a discipline that involves considerable strings of rapid fire and very hot barrels indeed, often shot in ambient temperatures that are far higher than we would ever see here too so barrels get less chance to cool fully between match stages from primarily H4350. For deerstalking and other mostly cold barrel field shooting, barrel life will be a LOT longer. So, even if a full-house RS60 load in the Creedmoor halves barrel life - and that's a worst case scenario / estimate - it will still be at the very worst 1,500 rounds, more likely getting on for 2,000. That's a lot of outings / deer for most people.

 

[cyprinuschris]

What powder now for the creed, if you want barrel life.

 

[nun_hunter]

Thanks for such a comprehensive post Laurie. Gives a lot of information and explanation behind the choices of powder. As it happens I can't seem to find a local reliable supply of RS powder so have gone with some Ramshot Hunter after some QL research and i can reliably get it locally at £34/lb. Fingers crosded it will produce good accuracy.

 

[Laurie]

What powder now for the creed, if you want barrel life.

RS50 and 62; Viht N140, N150, N160; IMR-4451 (REACH-compliant); Lovex SO65, SO70; Ramshot Big Game, Hunter. Alliant R15 and Re19 should have some applications too, but I don't think I've ever seen them mentioned for the cartridge.

4451 / Ramshot / Alliant powders all have small amounts of nitroglycerin in the mix but do not have a reputation for 'barrel burning'. The older Alliant grades are rather temperature sensitive, but rarely enough to cause problems in the British Isles.

 

[activeviii]

What powder now for the creed, if you want barrel life.

After a good few chats with the likes of Laurie earlier last year i settled nicely in with RS62. Thanks to Laurie for putting me in the right direction on charges as back then there was no data as such for the creedmoor with the RS powders.

i run a 6.5se with n165 and a 6.5 cm with RS62. dont know if its the way i cleaned the barrel on the CM in the early days or the barrel quality or the powder but after a day on range i find the RS powder easier to clean out the bore. i get more carbon to start but i can clean the bore in about 5 patches compared to the 15 or so with the the 6.5se and the N165. i only use the patch for mopping out after chemicals have done their job.

When my powders run out on the other calibres i will switch all to RS as its priced keenly and easy for me to get hold of and so easy to get a working load for field work.

 

[cyprinuschris]

RS50 and 62; Viht N140, N150, N160; IMR-4451 (REACH-compliant); Lovex SO65, SO70; Ramshot Big Game, Hunter. Alliant R15 and Re19 should have some applications too, but I don't think I've ever seen them mentioned for the cartridge.

4451 / Ramshot / Alliant powders all have small amounts of nitroglycerin in the mix but do not have a reputation for 'barrel burning'. The older Alliant grades are rather temperature sensitive, but rarely enough to cause problems in the British Isles.

Thanks Laurie for that, I'll try them if I'm successful in my grant application. I think I've just snaffled some superformance also.

 

[SaOsborne]

Chatting to a chap at Bisley today. He reckons he only uses RS60 for competitions, he practices with something else to save his barrel.
He also said that if he uses his normal RS60 load on a hot June day, he gets blown primers.
I presume he is talking about 284W F-Class loads.

Well I have seen exactely this with my .284 @ Bisley in August 2016. was driving what had been a really good load of 52 Gn of RS 60 using Berger 180gn Hybrids, averaging 2935 Fps this day, which was hotter that normal (2882fps) from my 28" barrel, so I knew the temp was causing high pressure. Got to my second series, still finalising load, 1st shot 2951, high pressure marks on primer, second 2939Fps and a blown primer so called a day. Real hot day and this happened at 15:00 around peak temp at around 30C. I have found my loads with 4831sc very consistent albeit a good deal less MV.

 

[JTO]

If we are relying on our own experiences for our knowledge base, we would never in a lifetime know as much as if we could learn from the experience/mistakes/failures etc. of others, in just a few years of listening. It's called education!

 

[R600]

I use RS62 in my Creedmoor with 143 ELD X and 140 Hybrids with good results, consistently small groups and single figure ES at 2800 fps. It gives more velocity than most powders without the high temperatures of RS60 which a mate has used to great effect, but with significantly shortened barrel life. I didn’t figure the extra few fps was worth 30 or 40% less barrel life. My barrel is still spot on at 1000 rounds, his was about done at that.

Dan, in am planning to go for the same combination: RS62, ELD-X 143 (Hornady brass, CCI BR2 LR primer).

Would you mind sharing start/max load details? Will try it in 2 bbls, a 24” one and a 20” one.

Thank you!