Sending of Firearms Certificate to a dealer?

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
I know its been discussed on here a few times guys but tbh it seems to be a very confusing situation that I can't get a definitive answer from through previous threads.

Bought a 22lr mod a few weeks ago through an online store. Store took my payment and local RFD details and posted to him, I picked it up with us both doing our paperwork. No problems.

I'm now about to purchase a 22lr rifle from another online company but they've asked me to post my actual FAC to them before they can send it. Is this the norm now? Why not so with the moderator (which occupies a slot just the same)? They said no copies, has to be the original for them to fill in. If this is the case then why do I need to pay the RFD my end? He'd just be receiving a rifle that another RFD has already had proof of legal entitlement for me to own for surely? With the 2x £25 transfer fees each end plus the recorded delivery I'd have to use for my certificate (I bet the cost of the return postage for it is charged to me too!) it seems not only a PITA but rather expensive just to buy a rifle that if I could I would buy down the road for £60-£70 less.

Any thoughts and clarification would be much appreciated. Let's not argue though eh lads! :D

Many thanks in advance. Paul
 

deeangeo

Well-Known Member
I know its been discussed on here a few times guys but tbh it seems to be a very confusing situation that I can't get a definitive answer from through previous threads.

Bought a 22lr mod a few weeks ago through an online store. Store took my payment and local RFD details and posted to him, I picked it up with us both doing our paperwork. No problems.

I'm now about to purchase a 22lr rifle from another online company but they've asked me to post my actual FAC to them before they can send it. Is this the norm now? Why not so with the moderator (which occupies a slot just the same)? They said no copies, has to be the original for them to fill in. If this is the case then why do I need to pay the RFD my end? He'd just be receiving a rifle that another RFD has already had proof of legal entitlement for me to own for surely? With the 2x £25 transfer fees each end plus the recorded delivery I'd have to use for my certificate (I bet the cost of the return postage for it is charged to me too!) it seems not only a PITA but rather expensive just to buy a rifle that if I could I would buy down the road for £60-£70 less.

Any thoughts and clarification would be much appreciated. Let's not argue though eh lads! :D

Many thanks in advance. Paul

I’ve just done exactly that to have a newly purchased rifle sent to my RFD. Got the variation from police & then sent my FAC to The RFD from whom I bought the new rifle. Got it back from him in three days with new rifle entered onto it and rifle despatched to my RFD. Arrived at my RFD today.
FAC sent both ways ‘Signed for’.
 

S&L7x57

Well-Known Member
I have had it from BASC, GTA and my Firearm Licencing Dept that this rather odd (to me) procedure is the current 'law'. Whether it is actually written into law I don't know but it is certainly accepted practice as recommended by ACPO or whoever is overseeing the mess a present.
As an RFD I must get the distant purchaser to send their SGC or RFD for me to complete. I then ship to their chosen RFD who will perform the hand over.
The charge from the 'hand-over' RFD is there to cover his paperwork, storage, insurance and general faff. After all, he is supplying a service and otherwise getting paid zip for it.
And yes, I would charge for the Special Delivery of the returning SGC/RFD or at least factor it in to the charge for the shipping of the purchased gun or consider it within the profit of the sale. Whatever, someone needs to pay!
Why the moderator didn't follow the same procedure, I have no idea. I think it should have. Perhaps, not having any identifying SN, it was thought unnecessary. Perhaps they were just breaking the rules. Perhaps they didn't know the rules at that time, got there wrist slapped by their FEO and were a touch more careful next time!
Don't you just love the rules we have to apply to keep the public safe from nutters like us! :stir:
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
I have had it from BASC, GTA and my Firearm Licencing Dept that this rather odd (to me) procedure is the current 'law'. Whether it is actually written into law I don't know but it is certainly accepted practice as recommended by ACPO or whoever is overseeing the mess a present.
As an RFD I must get the distant purchaser to send their SGC or RFD for me to complete. I then ship to their chosen RFD who will perform the hand over.
The charge from the 'hand-over' RFD is there to cover his paperwork, storage, insurance and general faff. After all, he is supplying a service and otherwise getting paid zip for it.
And yes, I would charge for the Special Delivery of the returning SGC/RFD or at least factor it in to the charge for the shipping of the purchased gun or consider it within the profit of the sale. Whatever, someone needs to pay!
Why the moderator didn't follow the same procedure, I have no idea. I think it should have. Perhaps, not having any identifying SN, it was thought unnecessary. Perhaps they were just breaking the rules. Perhaps they didn't know the rules at that time, got there wrist slapped by their FEO and were a touch more careful next time!
Don't you just love the rules we have to apply to keep the public safe from nutters like us! :stir:

Lol. Its crazy! Don't get me wrong i fully expect to pay my FEO for his part but the whole thing seems unnecessarily convoluted now. My mod was bought from a very high profile store not long ago so don't know what went on there. Assume like you said it might be the lack of serial number. rather worryingly though, who would be responsible for the potential loss of my licence in the post both in monetary terms and lost time? Thanks for your input S&L&x57.
 

Highlandsjohn

Well-Known Member
Lol. Its crazy! Don't get me wrong i fully expect to pay my FEO for his part but the whole thing seems unnecessarily convoluted now. My mod was bought from a very high profile store not long ago so don't know what went on there. Assume like you said it might be the lack of serial number. rather worryingly though, who would be responsible for the potential loss of my licence in the post both in monetary terms and lost time? Thanks for your input S&L&x57.

The problem is we are not all on the same page although I believe the sending of the FAC is the new 'guidance'.

When I bought a rifle down south,the dealer asked me to send my fac. When I asked my club RFD to handle the transaction, he said he had not heard of this new 'guidance'.

He then contacted the seller direct with his details and the rifle was sent to him the following day,RFD to RFD. No FAC was sent,go figure.john.
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
The problem is we are not all on the same page although I believe the sending of the FAC is the new 'guidance'.

When I bought a rifle down south,the dealer asked me to send my fac. When I asked my club RFD to handle the transaction, he said he had not heard of this new 'guidance'.

He then contacted the seller direct with his details and the rifle was sent to him the following day,RFD to RFD. No FAC was sent,go figure.john.

I might try that mate. At best it's looking on a long delay, at worst my FAC gets lost and I'll have to pay to get it replaced. Guidance is one thing, law another eh? I guess we're all living in fear and confusion a bit (shooters, RFds and probably FEOs) because the current laws are so vague, open to interpretation and punitive, or at best assuming the worst.
 

Markfox

Well-Known Member
Just get your RFD to buy it from the other RFD

then no need to send your FAC

thrn you just pay pay for the rifle etc at your RFD


ive done this a few times and I’ve not even been charged any RFD postal costs
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
That sounds very dodgy to me. The last rifle I bought, I paid the seller direct. They then sent the rifle to my RFD, who entered the details on my FAC and took the standard £25 handling fee. Any other method, I believe, would require a face-to-face transaction? I'd be extremely wary of letting my FAC out of my hands in this way
 

labrador77

Well-Known Member
Had to send my fac to the rfd when i purchased a s/h rifle earlier this year. Sent fac recorded delivery, they filled it out, sent it back to me recorded. Rifle was then sent to my local rfd where I picked it up after they checked all was correct on my fac. I think it's all to do with having the authority to possess as I think technically if for example you see a rifle that you like and pay for without having a vacant slot for it, you are in breach of firearms law despite not being in possession of it, legally as you have paid for it, it's your property.
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
if for example you see a rifle that you like and pay for without having a vacant slot for it, you are in breach of firearms law despite not being in possession of it

But you can purchase a rifle without even being in possession of an FAC if you leave it in the possession of the seller. I hear of it all the time with first-time applicants. If you don't have the relevant authority to possess, then the RFD cannot lawfully hand it over to you
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
Very confusing hence the thread! So what do I do? Would really like to avoid posting my cert anywhere but may have no choice I guess (don't want to take any chances with the law).
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't post your FAC to anyone. Speak to the seller and insist on an RFD to RFD transfer, then a face-to-face handover. This new 'send me your FAC' thing reeks to me of nonsense. I couldn't care less what any issuing force decides is their new 'guideline'. Once we start allowing them to dictate what we should, and shouldn't be doing it's a slippery slope. Follow the terms and conditions on your FAC regarding the transfer of firearms and you can't go wrong :)
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
Just spoke to them over the phone. They say it is has been policy for 12 months now. Also, that anyone not doing it is ignoring a policy that should be being followed by the entire gun trade as is opening themselves up to legal action against them. he advised use Special Delivery and they send it back with the firearm itself so no need to consider return postage. So I either send my FAC off or look elsewhere and hope they don't follow this ridiculous policy.
 

Woodsmoke

Well-Known Member
Just spoke to them over the phone. They say it is has been policy for 12 months now

Police Scotland are of the opposing view. I had a response to my email from earlier

'Good afternoon

I have spoken to our enquiry officers who are of the opinion that the dealer that you collect the item from completes table 1 of your certificate'.

So, as far as Police Scotland are concerned, your FAC shouldn't be sent away to anyone. Another case of English police forces doing just as they pleas, by the look of it :confused:
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
Interesting thread...that got plain weird towards the end! Thanks for the link.

So its 'guidance' at best and some dealers are following it and others not. It also struck me that the original store with the rifle for sale said i could call them to pay over the phone. If this were to be done in advance of them seeing my FAC as suggested are they not breaking the law? (selling a firearm to someone who hasn't proven authority to own one) Even if they don't send it to me until they've seen the cert they've still sold it to me haven't they?
 

deerstalker.308

Well-Known Member
Interesting thread...that got plain weird towards the end! Thanks for the link.

So its 'guidance' at best and some dealers are following it and others not. It also struck me that the original store with the rifle for sale said i could call them to pay over the phone. If this were to be done in advance of them seeing my FAC as suggested are they not breaking the law? (selling a firearm to someone who hasn't proven authority to own one) Even if they don't send it to me until they've seen the cert they've still sold it to me haven't they?

In a nutshell
 

deerstalker.308

Well-Known Member
Ahh yes let's cast our mind back to 5 days ago...


Youll note post #2, which if I’m not mistaken is what sheprador was told by his very own force..... funny it needed to descend to the level it did thereafter. Ho hum! Seems to be silly season on here at present.
 

Sheprador1973

Well-Known Member
Sinistral and others are correct too. Upon closer inspection it is there in black and white on my 2 month old FAC. Maybe the seller is in the right to be fair. Still doesn't make we want to send my certificate across the country, special delivery or not.
 
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