Shoot more deer or see more deer that is the question?

[VSS]

A deer owes you a minimum of £15/hr.
If VSS can get £350 out of a fallow doe, how long has he spent on it to get that? Obviously the running costs will decrease per animal, the more animals you process. But I’d say he’s getting back a lot more than £15/hr.

Yes.

.

The difference is that VSS is producing a consistent product and wild deer are inconsistent quality, especially when you let someone else supply the carcasses! We’ve all seen horrendously presented carcasses hanging in chillers all over this country and who wants responsibility for that?
I certainly wouldn’t want to have to rely on other people to supply carcasses unless I knew I could trust them 100% to be honest, hygienic and consistent.

Not all of my venison is from park deer, so I face the same challenges of inconsistent wild deer carcasses as anyone else doing the same job.
But using carcasses supplied by someone else would be very difficult I think, and if I was buying in I would probably reject most. (But pay well for the few good ones).

Yes for some but if you have a growing family and need a mortgage and want to go on holiday…..

You can see the reluctance particularly in an uncertain market.

How many people have a growing family, need a mortgage and want to go on holiday at the age of 20? You can do all that stuff in your 30s, by which time you've had 10 years to get a decent little business off the ground. And if it doesn't work out, you've at least had 10 years enjoying yourself before settling down!

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

I think if you are business minded, with skills in stalking, butchery, logistics and marketing, then you could turn a good profit from all this, but most Fred in shed are lacking in at least two of those areas. Even those who have all the required skills usually have a career elsewhere and only see deer as a potential secondary income and wouldn’t have the time or energy to bother trying to start a small business for themselves.

A deer owes you a minimum of £15/hr.
If VSS can get £350 out of a fallow doe, how long has he spent on it to get that? Obviously the running costs will decrease per animal, the more animals you process. But I’d say he’s getting back a lot more than £15/hr.

The difference is that VSS is producing a consistent product and wild deer are inconsistent quality, especially when you let someone else supply the carcasses! We’ve all seen horrendously presented carcasses hanging in chillers all over this country and who wants responsibility for that?
I certainly wouldn’t want to have to rely on other people to supply carcasses unless I knew I could trust them 100% to be honest, hygienic and consistent.

You start busting up a larder full of lowland reds and then see how you go

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Over here the local authorities have the last word ref all game shooting and no land owner can forbid it on their land, they are required to be a part of the overall management solution. Rock stars and tree huggers can moan all they want but they have no clout.
When all landowners are in the same boat that would IMO be a small but good beginning, I agree that the UKs perceived sense of landowners freedoms could appear threatened.

 

[big ears]

Only you as an individual can decide if you want to put the graft in !….
Someone said it earlier …. It’s a thought pulling the trigger as yeah you work & time getting the beast bit once that triggers gone the work starts !
Not just the physical but the paperwork, record keeping and once you’ve cleared the larder the cleaning and then it all starts again !
Yes I’m a “Fred I’m a shed “ social media pages & converted double garage , full EHO approved etc.
but I work offshore in oil so it’s part time, and could NEVER compete with my oil wage !
BUT if I was laid off tomorow and no chance of staying in that industry I’d seriously look at upgrading my “sideline”
Problem is even as I have at moment is I have demand but I can’t fill it … I need more ground to be honest but when I do have product I can shift it …. I also have clients who want a whole skinned carcass to do themselves so options to “flip “ occasional beast …
Bit as VSS says you NEED to put time in pushing it to get going , to create that market … nothing comes for free & if was easy or goldmine for half an effort every f&@ker would be doing it !

Paul

But as you say it was a side line from a well paid full time job.

Now put the boot in the other foot. Could you have afforded to set up with all the equipment and sell the venison and bring home a wage to support your family as you have just from shooting deer at the start?

Many of us are older, have resources behind us and then set up a business selling venison. Sometimes to supplement pensions etc.

Im not sure someone starting out can do that. Ive seen how difficult it’s been for my son in his horticultural business which pays a much better hourly rate than stalking.

 

[User00047]

You start busting up a larder full of lowland reds and then see how you go

Yeah, that’s not going to happen.
I’m not a butcher. I have no interest in butchery or the wages it attracts

Just because I don’t want to do it doesn’t mean someone else can’t be successful at it.

 

[big ears]

Yes.

Not all of my venison is from park deer, so I face the same challenges of inconsistent wild deer carcasses as anyone else doing the same job.
But using carcasses supplied by someone else would be very difficult I think, and if I was buying in I would probably reject most. (But pay well for the few good ones).


How many people have a growing family, need a mortgage and want to go on holiday at the age of 20? You can do all that stuff in your 30s, by which time you've had 10 years to get a decent little business off the ground. And if it doesn't work out, you've at least had 10 years enjoying yourself before settling down!

Human biology is that we should breed in our twenties. Decrease in fertility and higher birth defect rates in children born to mothers in thirties. The lower birth rate and people starting families in their thirties is a consequence of economic pressure. Not in every case choice. But that’s a different debate.

The start up costs, chillers, butchering equipment etc are not small. You are suggesting a twenty year old invests in this as a whim and chucks it all away if it doesn’t work? How will they pay off the loans?

It just isn’t a model that works for anyone other than those with finances already behind them.

What could work us an apprentice system but then you will need to double the turnover as you have to pay two wages!

 

[HonestJohn]

I agree personally but for the most part our community can't.

Many on here or other forums have a heck of a lot to say about new legislation in Scotland but actually don't see what's happening on their doorstep.

I look at pictures and videos of herds of Fallow running across motorways in England and I am blown away but I don't comment because it's not the grounds I manage but I understand the problem. Here in the Highlands we have seen a huge increase in RTA's I have had 6 humane dispatch calls this week . We see more roaming deer than ever and clearing my properties just creates more roaming space.

But that's bye the bye, we have to admit our failings to be part of the solution and not just attack every legislation that is proposed but to try negotiate a middle ground because politically we are losing or fighting a losing battle atleast.

That’s not because of increasing deer populations, it’s displacement caused by clear felling and subsequent high cull contract activity.

don’t be blinded by reality

 

[VSS]

The start up costs, chillers, butchering equipment etc are not small. You are suggesting a twenty year old invests in this as a whim and chucks it all away if it doesn’t work? How will they pay off the loans?

It just isn’t a model that works for anyone other than those with finances already behind them.

A young person starting up a business will get grant funding for a significant proportion of the startup costs.

Anyway, basically what I'm trying to say is that if someone has developed a market for venison, and needs more carcasses to satisfy demand, then they should be given access to land to shoot on, rather than the land being tied up by someone who moans that they can't shift carcasses, or by someone who just shoots one or two for the pot.

 

[big ears]

Anyway, basically what I'm trying to say is that if someone has developed a market for venison, and needs more carcasses to satisfy demand, then they should be given access to land to shoot on, rather than the land being tied up by someone who moans that they can't shift carcasses, or by someone who just shoots one or two for the pot.

Absolutely 100%. Like the landowners being fined if they don’t control deer. The stalkers should allow others in if they only want one for the pot, or trophies.

 

[HonestJohn]

Again- if you pay for the stalking or have a commercial interest (eg. Guiding), you want to shoot just enough to keep the owner happy, but leave a lot of deer to ‘enjoy’.

If you separate the stalking from commercial sporting, you will suddenly find a shift towards a more deer management oriented approach. That said, not a financial incentive per deer, as it will be abused for financial gain, so therein lies the challenge and why tag systems like in public lands in the US works. However, due to private land ownership, that would only work on public land like FLS and FC types of grounds.

 

[User00047]

I can’t believe anyone thinks they are going to force landowners to allow random guys with sniper scopes and high powered sniper rifles to come and go as they please all over their property in Hertfordshire to murder poor Bambi that they like to watch with her kids! Just because someone wants more ground to stalk over

This is NOT going to happen, irrespective of how many deer we think there should be.

 

[big ears]

Again- if you pay for the stalking or have a commercial interest (eg. Guiding), you want to shoot just enough to keep the owner happy, but leave a lot of deer to ‘enjoy’.

If you separate the stalking from commercial sporting, you will suddenly find a shift towards a more deer management oriented approach. That said, not a financial incentive per deer, as it will be abused for financial gain, so therein lies the challenge and why tag systems like in public lands in the US works. However, due to private land ownership, that would only work on public land like FLS and FC types of grounds.

Don’t draw comparisons with America. Their public land is vast and therefore hunter density low. We have the complete opposite in this country.
Where a tag system would work is that NE surveyed an area and told the landowner the number of female animals/tags that must be shot and fined them heavily if it didn’t happen.

I’ll just go and feed and water the pigs in preparation for their morning flight

 

[big ears]

I can’t believe anyone thinks they are going to force landowners to allow random guys with sniper scopes and high powered sniper rifles to come and go as they please all over their property in Hertfordshire to murder poor Bambi that they like to watch with her kids! Just because someone wants more ground to stalk over

This is NOT going to happen, irrespective of how many deer we think there should be.

It will if it’s centrally driven. But that isn’t going to happen

 

[HonestJohn]

I can’t believe anyone thinks they are going to force landowners to allow random guys with sniper scopes and high powered sniper rifles to come and go as they please all over their property in Hertfordshire to murder poor Bambi that they like to watch with her kids! Just because someone wants more ground to stalk over

This is NOT going to happen, irrespective of how many deer we think there should be.

When the FLS said to a local near my grounds in Scotland, He’s needing to cull harder or they’d do it for him, he said if anyone shows up he’ll bury them in the hills. No one’s been back since, a few years at least that is

 

[nun_hunter]

Don’t draw comparisons with America. Their public land is vast and therefore hunter density low. We have the complete opposite in this country.
Where a tag system would work is that NE surveyed an area and told the landowner the number of female animals/tags that must be shot and fined them heavily if it didn’t happen.

I’ll just go and feed and water the pigs in preparation for their morning flight

I read up quite a bit on American hunting forums and pages and yes as a general rule the land is huge and hunter densities lower, but that is only on average. Nearly all the I fo I read suggests that the easy ground close to car parks and trail heads is crowded with hunters, people arguing and can be perceived as quite dangerous. If you want to find a place to shoot without other hunters then you have to get hiking for a few miles at least.

The UK is crowded but I bet the majority of stalkers wouldn't be bothered to shoot a deer a mile from their vehicle knowing they have to extract it under their own steam. There would still be plenty of quiet areas to hunt.

 

[JTO]

During WW2, anyone not farming efficiently had their land allocated to someone who was doing it right. Some farms were still being farmed by those that had been allocated the land decades later.

 

[big ears]

I read up quite a bit on American hunting forums and pages and yes as a general rule the land is huge and hunter densities lower, but that is only on average. Nearly all the I fo I read suggests that the easy ground close to car parks and trail heads is crowded with hunters, people arguing and can be perceived as quite dangerous. If you want to find a place to shoot without other hunters then you have to get hiking for a few miles at least.

The UK is crowded but I bet the majority of stalkers wouldn't be bothered to shoot a deer a mile from their vehicle knowing they have to extract it under their own steam. There would still be plenty of quiet areas to hunt.

I’ve been and done it.
Slob hunters they are called, shoot within a few hundred yards of car.
It is deserted after then.
My mate shot an elk took us all day to extract. 7 mile round trip with 3000’ elevation. We did it twice with full packs.
Not for the faint hearted.
It is still just another scale, packets of land the size of wales!!

 

[JTO]

I read up quite a bit on American hunting forums and pages and yes as a general rule the land is huge and hunter densities lower, but that is only on average. Nearly all the I fo I read suggests that the easy ground close to car parks and trail heads is crowded with hunters, people arguing and can be perceived as quite dangerous. If you want to find a place to shoot without other hunters then you have to get hiking for a few miles at least.

The UK is crowded but I bet the majority of stalkers wouldn't be bothered to shoot a deer a mile from their vehicle knowing they have to extract it under their own steam. There would still be plenty of quiet areas to hunt.

I spoke to a young masonry student at the local college some years ago. He was from Saskatchewan. He said he had shot a large deer, can't remember what species, that took him two days to back-pack out. I guess it was pretty cold at the time.

 

[mike308]

I would like to see more deer but the reality is that I have to do what the forestry companies want.. I look after three small forestry blocks in Scotland. One is semi mature trees, this land has no pressure for me to shoot more, so I can manage the deer as I please.
One of the other blocks has been totally clearfelled and replanted so deer are shot on sight. The third is going to be clearfelled next year so I have started culling hard.
So we don't always have the choice.

 

[NullMac]

The government needs to provide the infrastructure to help the landowner achieve this.

No they do not. The owners of the land should manage it responsibly and take the costs of that as part of their overall business. No privatising profits and nationalising costs thank you very much. The value of their land provides them with more than enough capital to fund the work. In reality they can force the damn stalker to shoot enough to keep the density on target. At the moment it doesn't really get much attention.

I think the deer populations coukd be reduced. I think landowners if incentived could do it.

Yes. Incentivised by a legal requirement and a reduction in subsidy if they do not.


As for people not being able to get rid of their venison, well if Peterborough game are collecting in the Scottish Borders then they must be driving past a load of you.