Man fatally shot at house named by police - BBC News
Connor Batty, 26, from Barnsley, died after an incident at a house in Hemsworth on Thursday evening.
www.bbc.co.uk
Shooting in Yorkshire??
- Thread starter B&W FOX
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www.bbc.co.uk
Very sad that somebody has lost a life in this incident.But one has to ask what were they doing there with no invite.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I had 8 years in the USA and over there this would only be reported in the NRA publication The American Rifleman magazine on the "armed citizen" page and no charges would have been brought if as it seems by the report the house resident fired the shot. Home is your castle???
Reloader708
Well-Known Member
Obviously I dont know the details but as above it seems like they entered the house without invitation and one of them was shot.
It does seem a strange situation we find ourselves in that the defence of ones own property often leads to prosecution. Lots of other countries would be scratching their heads at a case like this.
It does seem a strange situation we find ourselves in that the defence of ones own property often leads to prosecution. Lots of other countries would be scratching their heads at a case like this.
Ratcatcher
Well-Known Member
I hope he didn't use lead ?
Sorted it for you @Nickb but sadly in the UK, it's somehow the homeowners fault and they get taken to task.
With a ratio of three blokes to one, what is the definition of " reasonable force"?
As long as it isn't pre-meditated, you can do pretty much whatever you feel like in the heat of the moment. This has been demonstrated time and again in courts up and down the land.
The principle is quite simple...
Scenario A: You're asleep in bed and you hear what you think is someone breaking into your home. You get out of bed to go and investigate and on your way you pick up the nearest heavy thing to hand (a lamp, the iron you'd meant to put away but didn't, a candlestick, etc.) and make your way toward the noise. You find yourself face to face with the intruder(s) who are moving toward you and you instinctively strike out, killing one of them.
Scenario B: You're asleep in bed and you hear what you think is someone breaking into your home. You get out of bed to go and investigate and on your way you take out the baseball bat you keep propped by the side of your bed for just such an occasion. You find yourself face to face with the intruder(s) who are moving toward you and you instinctively strike out, killing one of them.
It has been shown - repeatedly - that A is perfectly OK and you're more than likely going to be acquitted. Scenario B is very likely to result in you being convicted because of the pre-meditation shown by you keeping a weapon to hand for just such an occasion. There was an interesting case where an intruder was stabbed to death by an elderly man. Read the details here, ruled a lawful killing: Article. There was another case I read where the defendant stabbed an intruder as they came up the stairs toward them. Unfortunately for the defendant, the prosecution was amply able to show that the defendant had gone to the kitchen to obtain the knife prior to the confrontation on the stairs thus demonstrating pre-meditation. They were duly convicted as a result.
In the case of using a legally held firearm you're going to have to show how, in the heat of the moment, the instinctive and only option available to you was to go and get your keys, unlock your cabinet, take out the shotgun, load it and then have the intruders happen upon you by surprise. In other words, a flight of pure fantasy.
From R vs Scarlett, Lord Justice Beldam said:
You'd have to go a very very long way or have truly exceptional circumstances to prove that any use of a firearm in self defence in the UK was not "plainly more than was called for by the circumstances".
Regardless, the thrust of the above is exclusively in regard to the defence of yourself or another person. Using deadly force to prevent the commission of a crime is not going to be defensible unless the death can be shown to be accidental/not unreasonable as per Scarlett.
I think this is why a lot of forces don't like cabinets in bedrooms. Not having a cabinet in the bedroom makes it nice and clean for prosecution should this kind of thing happen, unless you have a penchant for doing gun maintenance with live ammunition to hand, at 0200 in your bed.
Ploddy Paul
Well-Known Member
I must admit I don’t get it. If 3 men break into your home what are you supposed to do? Invite them in? Show them round? Point out where the valuables are? What is reasonable force if you are a 60 year old man and they are mid 20s? Should you ask what their intentions are so one can work out a plan without being too aggressive? Or just attack them with your slipper and when they’ve beaten you over the head and tied you up and you’re having your heart attack the policeman can give you a crime number?
About 10 years ago, so I would have been about 60, myself, my wife and my daughter (mid 20s ), were sitting watching telly when I heard the back door open. Looking up I saw 2 figures disappear, I leapt up and ran out shouting but they had gone. I went back and got the car keys to go and see if I could find them, ( not sure what I thought I would do, never had a fight in my life! ), anyway my wife insisted on coming so off we went. Down the road, didn’t see anyone, turned around and at the end of our track were 3 chaps. Well I thought I’m not taking you all on so went back to call the police. When we got inside my daughter said that the 3rd person had tried to get in after we had left even though she was shouting and the dog ( Labrador), was barking.
So if those 2 or 3 men had come through my back door and I had gone to another room to grab a weapon, not necessarily a gun, and used it to protect myself and my family would I have been justified? I hope so. If I had a weapon with me in the car and attacked the men at the end of my track would that have been ok? No they weren’t on my property and I couldn’t positively identify them. If the 3rd man had broken the door and got into my house would my daughter have been justified in protecting herself? I bloody well hope so.
That a young man died wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t broken into that house. End of.
About 10 years ago, so I would have been about 60, myself, my wife and my daughter (mid 20s ), were sitting watching telly when I heard the back door open. Looking up I saw 2 figures disappear, I leapt up and ran out shouting but they had gone. I went back and got the car keys to go and see if I could find them, ( not sure what I thought I would do, never had a fight in my life! ), anyway my wife insisted on coming so off we went. Down the road, didn’t see anyone, turned around and at the end of our track were 3 chaps. Well I thought I’m not taking you all on so went back to call the police. When we got inside my daughter said that the 3rd person had tried to get in after we had left even though she was shouting and the dog ( Labrador), was barking.
So if those 2 or 3 men had come through my back door and I had gone to another room to grab a weapon, not necessarily a gun, and used it to protect myself and my family would I have been justified? I hope so. If I had a weapon with me in the car and attacked the men at the end of my track would that have been ok? No they weren’t on my property and I couldn’t positively identify them. If the 3rd man had broken the door and got into my house would my daughter have been justified in protecting herself? I bloody well hope so.
That a young man died wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t broken into that house. End of.
Exactly.
So three blokes turn up uninvited at some oddball hour at your house with jemmy bars, hammers or whatever, but as @DRZ pointed out, if you were to have a baseball bat at the side of your bed then that clearly isn't acceptable......... am I getting this right?
Reloader708
Well-Known Member
I guess thinking along the lines of self defence is like premeditated crime in the eyes of our overlords.
If you intend saving your family from a crazed serial killer id suggest using the most obscure implement possible, and definitely delete this message because it shows you've thought about it.
Swedish
Well-Known Member
Couple who shot burglar not to be charged - Brett Wilson
The Chief Crown Prosecutor for the East Midlands Judith Walker has issued a statement indicating that Andy and Tracey Ferrie will not be charged for using
www.brettwilson.co.uk
Reloader708
Well-Known Member
Wonder how smoothly his next renewal will go?Couple who shot burglar not to be charged - Brett Wilson
The Chief Crown Prosecutor for the East Midlands Judith Walker has issued a statement indicating that Andy and Tracey Ferrie will not be charged for using
An obscure object, whatever that may be, could still land you in court.
So why did you have that piece of scaffolding in your bedroom?
Etc. Or were you thinking of throwing a bottle of shampoo at them?
I respectfully disagree with the end bit, all it proves is that the realities of daily life have been considered, which with social media etc, widespread discussions like this are unavoidable really.
The law really is an ass in this regard. Look at the case of the Stockport guy who chased his own motorbike after it was stolen. He didn't take part in the thieves crash, this apparently was agreed by the prosecution, but he was held accountable as if he hadn't chased them then they might not have crashed.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Edit.... Apparently this has now been resolved to a more logical conclusion.
Boy, 16, on stolen bike died trying to get away from burglary victim chasing him
Dean Barnes died after being pursued by Callum Duncan, jurors were told
www-manchestereveningnews-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org
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Reloader708
Well-Known Member
I respect your respectful disagreement, I was only trying to point out how ridiculous the whole system is. The fact this subject even needs consideration is laughable.An obscure object, whatever that may be, could still land you in court.
So why did you have that piece of scaffolding in your bedroom?
Etc.
I respectfully disagree with the end bit, all it proves is that the realities of daily life have been considered, which with social media etc, widespread discussions like this are unavoidable really.
The law really is an ass in this regard. Look at the case of the Stockport guy who chased his own motorbike after it was stolen. He didn't take part in the thieves crash, this apparently was agreed by the prosecution, but he was held accountable as if he hadn't chased them then they might not have crashed.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Apparently this has now been resolved to a more logical conclusion.
Boy, 16, on stolen bike died trying to get away from burglary victim chasing him
Dean Barnes died after being pursued by Callum Duncan, jurors were told
And I believe it incredibly wise to have "a plan" and to be aware of your surroundings, at the end of the day a crime number is no replacement for your family.
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