Shooting in Yorkshire??

[eldon]

I was only trying to point out how ridiculous the whole system is. The fact this subject even needs consideration is laughable.

Agreed.

 

[Rake Aboot]

That story has no detail to make any sort of informed comment.
Was the gun licensed ? Not enough known to say anything about who deserved what

 

[Dunwaters]

Leaving the above case aside for the moment, the definition of self defence and the justification for use of force, especially lethal force, in the UK are a nightmare.
Here it’s much clearer, and it’s much clearer elsewhere in Europe, therefore it’s not the EU or the European courts forcing it on you.
You are willingly doing this to yourselves.
I do not understand how you’ve allowed yourselves to be put into the position where defending yourself within the curtilage of your own home will result in charges being brought which will most likely result in a conviction and a jail sentence, because you failed to act with 20/20 hindsight and perfect consideration of the legal niceties while being attacked.
To pour insult on injury you will then be sued for compensation in civil court by your victim or their family and the fact that you had the audacity to defend yourself and were convicted for so doing will count against you when damages are assessed.
Oh, I nearly forgot, first thing, as soon as the police respond to the initial incident you will lose your firearms and FAC’s and you won’t get them back regardless of the results of the court cases or whether or not your firearms were actually relevant to the offence.
How on earth did you get yourselves into this mess?

 

[User00056]

One thing is perfectly clear. The world is now benefiting from having one less criminal.

 

[WH308]

There is a reason 4 D cell mag lights exist. I heard a noise and grabbed the torch I keep by the bedside in case of a power cut your honour.

 

[Swedish]

Oh, I nearly forgot, first thing, as soon as the police respond to the initial incident you will lose your firearms and FAC’s and you won’t get them back regardless of the results of the court cases or whether or not your firearms were actually relevant to the offence.
How on earth did you get yourselves into this mess?

Not true

 

[Dunwaters]

Not true

Have a scroll through the legal section here, go back through Fieldsports channel reports.

 

[Swedish]

Have a scroll through the legal section here, go back through Fieldsports channel reports.

I don't need to, it's not true.

 

[Dunwaters]

I don't need to, it's not true.

Thread 'Burglary and police removing my guns'

Feb 11, 2025

Hi all,

I was burgled on November, after this burglary the police insisted that I remove my shotguns from my house to a friends for a few months. The burglars came back two days ago while myself and my pregnant wife were asleep upstairs. Two masked men tried to get in the front door with the stolen keys from last time. They were not successful in gaining entry and I did not see their attempt until I checked the ring doorbell the next morning. I have just had a call from my firearms officer telling me that I need to move my guns out of the house until the end of April, otherwise they will...

• TDShamwari
• london police shotgun license
• Replies: 118
• Forum: Legal Issues

• 
• 

 

[Swedish]

Thread 'Burglary and police removing my guns'

Feb 11, 2025

Hi all,

I was burgled on November, after this burglary the police insisted that I remove my shotguns from my house to a friends for a few months. The burglars came back two days ago while myself and my pregnant wife were asleep upstairs. Two masked men tried to get in the front door with the stolen keys from last time. They were not successful in gaining entry and I did not see their attempt until I checked the ring doorbell the next morning. I have just had a call from my firearms officer telling me that I need to move my guns out of the house until the end of April, otherwise they will...

• TDShamwari
• london police shotgun license
• Replies: 118
• Forum: Legal Issues

• 
• 

That has nothing to do with the topic being discussed and everything to do with either over-reach of authority or even perhaps genuine concern that the firearms are at risk from factors that we are not privvy to.

Here's one for you:

Two burglars shot by homeowner jailed for four years

Judge tells Joshua O'Gorman and Daniel Mansell their shotgun injuries were not mitigating factors in their sentencing

www.theguardian.com

Using reasonable force against intruders

The steps you can take to tackle an intruder or burglar in your own home - and what force you can use to defend yourself

www.gov.uk

By law you can use whatever means to hand that you deem reasonable/necessary in the heat of the moment to defend yourself or anyone else that you believe to be under threat.

 

[Scarpa]

In Austria where I live handguns require a licence whereas long guns generally don't. But a reasonable justification for owning a pistol is home defense.

 

[Dunwaters]

That has nothing to do with the topic being discussed and everything to do with either over-reach of authority or even perhaps genuine concern that the firearms are at risk from factors that we are not privvy to.

Agreed, my comment has nothing to do with lead, it deals with what I believe to be a greater threat, the increasingly risk averse attitude of your police forces towards public possession of or access to firearms.

Here's one for you:

Two burglars shot by homeowner jailed for four years

Judge tells Joshua O'Gorman and Daniel Mansell their shotgun injuries were not mitigating factors in their sentencing

www.theguardian.com

Using reasonable force against intruders

The steps you can take to tackle an intruder or burglar in your own home - and what force you can use to defend yourself

www.gov.uk

By law you can use whatever means to hand that you deem reasonable/necessary in the heat of the moment to defend yourself or anyone else that you believe to be under threat.

Have a look at the Lee Clegg judgement, it involves a court of record and it puts very severe constraints on the plea of defence of self or others.

 

[kenbro]

As long as it isn't pre-meditated, you can do pretty much whatever you feel like in the heat of the moment. This has been demonstrated time and again in courts up and down the land.

The principle is quite simple...

Scenario A: You're asleep in bed and you hear what you think is someone breaking into your home. You get out of bed to go and investigate and on your way you pick up the nearest heavy thing to hand (a lamp, the iron you'd meant to put away but didn't, a candlestick, etc.) and make your way toward the noise. You find yourself face to face with the intruder(s) who are moving toward you and you instinctively strike out, killing one of them.

Scenario B: You're asleep in bed and you hear what you think is someone breaking into your home. You get out of bed to go and investigate and on your way you take out the baseball bat you keep propped by the side of your bed for just such an occasion. You find yourself face to face with the intruder(s) who are moving toward you and you instinctively strike out, killing one of them.

It has been shown - repeatedly - that A is perfectly OK and you're more than likely going to be acquitted. Scenario B is very likely to result in you being convicted because of the pre-meditation shown by you keeping a weapon to hand for just such an occasion. There was an interesting case where an intruder was stabbed to death by an elderly man. Read the details here, ruled a lawful killing: Article. There was another case I read where the defendant stabbed an intruder as they came up the stairs toward them. Unfortunately for the defendant, the prosecution was amply able to show that the defendant had gone to the kitchen to obtain the knife prior to the confrontation on the stairs thus demonstrating pre-meditation. They were duly convicted as a result.

In the case of using a legally held firearm you're going to have to show how, in the heat of the moment, the instinctive and only option available to you was to go and get your keys, unlock your cabinet, take out the shotgun, load it and then have the intruders happen upon you by surprise. In other words, a flight of pure fantasy.

From R vs Scarlett, Lord Justice Beldam said:



You'd have to go a very very long way or have truly exceptional circumstances to prove that any use of a firearm in self defence in the UK was not "plainly more than was called for by the circumstances".

Regardless, the thrust of the above is exclusively in regard to the defence of yourself or another person. Using deadly force to prevent the commission of a crime is not going to be defensible unless the death can be shown to be accidental/not unreasonable as per Scarlett.

A good few years back a home owner stabbed and killed a person he found in his garden.
He was charged with murder and acquitted.
The man in the garden and got killed was an under cover policeman.
The word Noye comes to mind.
KB.

 

[Swedish]

Agreed, my comment has nothing to do with lead, it deals with what I believe to be a greater threat, the increasingly risk averse attitude of your police forces towards public possession of or access to firearms.

Have a look at the Lee Clegg judgement, it involves a court of record and it puts very severe constraints on the plea of defence of self or others.

I'm not sure that those circumstances could be compared either to be fair.

 

[Dunwaters]

I'm not sure that those circumstances could be compared either to be fair.

I’ll leave it there, you seem to be placing jury decisions on the same plane as case law.
Juries frequently display more sense.

 

[25 Sharps]

There is a reason 4 D cell mag lights exist. I heard a noise and grabbed the torch I keep by the bedside in case of a power cut your honour.

I just sold my 6D cell maglight!

 

[Swedish]

I’ll leave it there, you seem to be placing jury decisions on the same plane as case law.
Juries frequently display more sense.

You're going to have to expand on your point. This thread is about an incident involving a home invasion in Yorkshire and self-defense options for the owner occupier. You have just presented a case involving a serving soldier and a shooting at a security checkpoint.

 

[castbullets.co.uk]

A good few years back a home owner stabbed and killed a person he found in his garden.
He was charged with murder and acquitted.
The man in the garden and got killed was an under cover policeman.
The word Noye comes to mind.
KB.

Yes, he managed to hoodwink the jury - largely because there were no witnesses which allowed the defence to lean heavily on reasonable doubt. He was a scumbag through and through.

Should anyone wish to stab to death a Police officer at night while wearing all black clothing including a balaclava, subsequently attempting to claim self defence (perhaps even citing the Noye case), I wish you the very best of luck. Juries are very often wrong, as (in my opinion) they clearly and inexcusably were in this case. Had they not got it so badly wrong, Stephen Cameron would very likely still be alive today.

 

[Dunwaters]

You're going to have to expand on your point. This thread is about an incident involving a home invasion in Yorkshire and self-defense options for the owner occupier. You have just presented a case involving a serving soldier and a shooting at a security checkpoint.

The case is relevant to the use of self defence as justification for resorting to the use of force to defend yourself and what qualifies as legitimate self defence.
There are examples of your police revoking FAC ‘s following reports of homeowners defending themselves or their property.
There are also examples of your police removing firearms from the victim’s of burglary purely because of the burglary.
I’m just pointing out that self defence in Britain is not quite the same as it is elsewhere.

 

[Swedish]

The case is relevant to the use of self defence as justification for resorting to the use of force to defend yourself and what qualifies as legitimate self defence.
There are examples of your police revoking FAC ‘s following reports of homeowners defending themselves or their property.
There are also examples of your police removing firearms from the victim’s of burglary purely because of the burglary.
I’m just pointing out that self defence in Britain is not quite the same as it is elsewhere.

The example I gave of a legally held shotgun being used in self-defence (and subsequently upheld as legitimate action in a court of law) took place more than 10 years after your example of the checkpoint shooting which I'm sure we can all agree is an entirely different set of circumstances. The fieldsports channel is sketchy at best and using them as a reliable source of info regarding fac revocations is not wise. I suspect that in many cases of revocation that there are back-stories that we never get to hear. That said I'm also certain that there are examples of over-reach and poor handling of certification by many police forces in the uk. Devon and Cornwall, Cumbria and Police Scotland being among them, usually as a result of over-the-top arse covering excercises that stem from fac grants that should never have taken place at all. I'm sure we all know what I'm saying. Are you saying that no such revocations take place on the Emerald Isle?