Sika coat

[Hell Toupee]

Was out recently watching the sika to see what’s around. Can anyone tell me (or have I forgotten) when sika change from winter to summer coat?

Specifically for males as all the hinds I saw were in summer coat, the (majority) of the stags were spotty with one or two still black. I struggled to correlate age (antler size) with coat changes.

Any wisdom?

Cheers.
HT

 

[Mungo]

If this is the Tweed valley population, there’s very little pattern in the coat colour.

It’s an extremely inbred population (founder population of less than 20), and it’s well established that coat colour in inbred populations can be very unpredictable.

With the Dawyck sika, there’s really no point trying to correlate coat colour with anything much. If you want to shoot a big head, find one with a big head and shoot it. If you want to make culling decisions about who changes colour at what time, you not going to get anywhere.

 

[Ratel]

The Dawyck animals can be black all year in some cases, due to the influence of that Whipsnade Kerama black stag. There were a lot more than twenty animals in the park to start with. I was shooting a lot of them at one time working on the estate both with guests and as a stalker so perhaps know a little more than most.
I also shot animals from that gene pool with a red winter coat up at the source of the Tweed. No they weren't hybrids, although I have shot hybrids not far from there with really strange coloured coats.

 

[HonestJohn]

As above, but I’ve seen some very red and spotted sika hinds at Stobo in the past in the summer months

 

[Mungo]

The Dawyck animals can be black all year in some cases, due to the influence of that Whipsnade Kerama black stag. There were a lot more than twenty animals in the park to start with. I was shooting a lot of them at one time working on the estate both with guests and as a stalker so perhaps know a little more than most.
I also shot animals from that gene pool with a red winter coat up at the source of the Tweed. No they weren't hybrids, although I have shot hybrids not far from there with really strange coloured coats.

When you say a lot more than 20 in the park to start, do you mean at Whipsnade or Dawyck?

And do you know when the Dawyck population got out and started to spread?

 

[Ratel]

When you say a lot more than 20 in the park to start, do you mean at Whipsnade or Dawyck?

And do you know when the Dawyck population got out and started to spread?

I meant Dawyck. First escapes during WW2.

 

[Mungo]

I meant Dawyck. First escapes during WW2.

Any idea how many got out to start the free living population?

 

[Ratel]

Quite a few, but the rest legged it after a big storm with trees flattening fence. The Balfour family were a good source of info in my day.

 

[NickJ]

If this is the Tweed valley population, there’s very little pattern in the coat colour.

It’s an extremely inbred population (founder population of less than 20), and it’s well established that coat colour in inbred populations can be very unpredictable.

With the Dawyck sika, there’s really no point trying to correlate coat colour with anything much. If you want to shoot a big head, find one with a big head and shoot it. If you want to make culling decisions about who changes colour at what time, you not going to get anywhere.

I’m not sure that inbreeding is the cause of the coat trait of that herd, obviously many introductions of different species were just two or three individuals, that has not held them back, is it more that the particular strain that was introduced to Dawyck (as Ratel says) was darker than other ones in the UK and Ire (via Powerscourt) hence the near black animals you get in the Borders

 

[Camdig]

A few pictures of the variety of summer coats, I see a few hinds with dark coats all year round regularly. Stags around me can be anything from brown to black.

 

[NickJ]

A few pictures of the variety of summer coats, I see a few hinds with dark coats all year round regularly. Stags around me can be anything from brown to black.

Very interesting, are those pics from the Borders herd out of interest?

 

[Camdig]

Very interesting, are those pics from the Borders herd out of interest?

Aye they are from the Borders and South Lanarkshire, i live on the border of the two districts. They have really taken a hold in area over last 5 years and spreading further North and East.

 

[HonestJohn]

Aye they are from the Borders and South Lanarkshire, i live on the border of the two districts. They have really taken a hold in area over last 5 years and spreading further North and East.

True

We had them at Harwood estate when i had that ground 10 years ago or more. That’s 7+ miles east of Hawick

 

[Camdig]

I thought people on this thread might find this interesting, I have never seen a calf as black as this one.

 

[Ratel]

There you go it's one with the.Kerama gene in it.
Used to see one or two out on the hill above Wester Dawyck that colour twenty odd years ago. Shot a velvety black hind up near source of Tweed and also a red Sika stag same area circa 2002.

 

[VSS]

There you go it's one with the.Kerama gene in it.
Used to see one or two out on the hill above Wester Dawyck that colour twenty odd years ago. Shot a velvety black hind up near source of Tweed and also a red Sika stag same area circa 2002.

I don't think so. The kerama sika, despite being darker coloured, do still have the white around the tail. The deer in @Camdig's photos doesn't appear to have any white on it at all. Looks more like a melanistic variant to me.

 

[Ratel]

Tim, bear in mind it's something over fifty years since that stag was brought in so lots of things can morph in that time. Just remember that "Black lives matter" so even if this calf wants to identify as a White Welsh Rarebit that's ok. It might even have had it's rear end painted.to become black without a trace of white. Just go with the flow some genetics are always in evidence.hence red coloured beasties in the area as well. Being pedantic about perceived colouring in a type means nothing other than "There was once a black stag".

 

[NullMac]

Was out recently watching the sika to see what’s around. Can anyone tell me (or have I forgotten) when sika change from winter to summer coat?

Specifically for males as all the hinds I saw were in summer coat, the (majority) of the stags were spotty with one or two still black. I struggled to correlate age (antler size) with coat changes.

Any wisdom?

Cheers.
HT

It varies. We are in the Border population and despite what the 'expert' (forgotten his name) says we have stags some of which change colour and some that are black all year.

 

[Ratel]

It varies. We are in the Border population and despite what the 'expert' (forgotten his name) says we have stags some of which change colour and some that are black all year.

Have you still got Sika across in Fife? I stalked some in a forest near Kincardine bridge back in the 90's so was wondering if they are still about.

 

[Mungo]

I thought people on this thread might find this interesting, I have never seen a calf as black as this one.

Are you sure that’s sika? Sort of looks a bit fallow-y?