Specific calibre...what rifle?

[ejg]

Of course you have to include driven shooting as well as angled shots those are all part of shooting. Big game bullets just don't perform well on small game. Slow small tough bullet on low resistance target leads to runners. As I said before that can be cured with careful bullet selection. I think one issue is the quest for less meat damage and tougher bullets.
Overall if someone starts deer stalking I think 7mm - 30cal would just have a bit more reserves, not everything will go as expected.
edi

 

[NigelM]

As always in these discussions people focus on their own experiences and ways of doing things rather than think about how other people choose to hunt.

Edi stated pretty clearly in post #32 that the older 6.5x55 operating at lower pressures, shooting old style heavy blunt bullets were not particularly good compared with other options available. He also stated that the modern bullets used in the 6.5 creedmoor like the 143 ELDX were changing the game and would make it a much more usable cartridge.

Edi is an exceptionally experienced shot, is happy to reach out a bit and has the skill, experience and kit to do so, and being of European origin was bought up on driven hunting.

Dodgy is obviously very British but has been won over by Antipodean ways and is happy to get very rangy from the perspective of your average Brit. He also has the skills and kit to make it work. I know he wouldn't touch a blunt bullet with a barge pole unless hunting close range in bush.

Most of the rest of us take very few shots at more than 200 meters and in all honesty it doesn't really matter what you feed a Swede, at that range it will work on all quarry we shoot in the UK providing the bullet is of the right design and expand sufficiently.

At the end of the day a 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x55 Swede and 260 Rem will all deliver a 140 grain bullet between 2700 and 2800 fps. I can guarantee the deer will not notice the difference. If you're running a modern bullet like a 143 ELDX or a 142 ABLR they will all carry sufficient energy for Reds to 400 meters, some would say further. It's chalk and cheese compared with the old round nose bullets.

Would I choose a 6.5 for driven hunting? No. A 30 cal would give much more margin for error and it's highly likely there will be some. Would I choose a 6.5 for shooting beyond 300 meters? Probably not, I would move up to 7mm to give myself more margin for error on wind calls. Would I choose 6.5mm for most of the shooting we do in the UK which is inside 200 meters and static? Absolutely, it's the perfect calibre and bullet weight for UK species at those ranges.

 

[User00033]

Good summary Nigel. In a logical world, that would be a sensible place to end, and for us all to wish @Devonboy luck with his new purchase, whatever that may be! But that would be highly unusual of us.

Back to @Devonboy, are you any closer to selecting your rifle? If so what?

 

[jthyttin]

In Finland the 6.5 is often not even mentioned for moose, for example the article in an older VIT manual mention even a 30 cal being marginal for moose and a 9.3x62 being much better. How can opinions differ so much?

After WWII the minimum caliber for moose was 8mm in Finland (several reasons are stated, like prevent theft from military arsenal 7.62x53R since Mosin-Nagants from pre-WWII and war were floating around in quantity). Thus new cartridges were developed like 8.2x53R and 9.3x53R and rifles rebarreled to those. Also moose were shot to very low numbers, near extinction, in first part of 1900s. So swedes had their 6.5x55 Mausers and we got our 7.62 Mosin-Nagants (53R and 54R). Afterwards 308 and in some amount 30-06 replaced the older rifles. I believe we were all "watching to the west" i.e. USA when the Cold War was finally loosing it's grip and import restrictions etc. were being lifted. 1980s also saw some new "improvements" like semiauto w/o mag capacity limitations, and those designs were based on 308 and 30-06. Legislation change in 1993 brought capacity limits for semiauto and the sales dwindled.

Regarding 154gr / 10g bullet in 6.5mm, I haven't done research but from somewhere the minimum requirement for large game has been established to be 10g/2000J/100m OR 9g/2700J/100m in many countries in north(ish) Europe. Obviously to match some cartridges in popular use in the day, and taking into account inferior bullet technology in the past. 6.5x55 cannot make the limit with 140gr / 9g bullets (unless SKAN / homeload).

That said, I've shot driven (and stalked) game with 260 Rem, 308 Win and 9.3x62. I cannot say there's any significant difference in how the game (mostly boar and moose) react to the shot or how long they run before expiring. I don't take shots at funny angles and use only quality bullets in homeloads (mostly Nosler, some Woodleigh).

 

[zambezi]

Regarding 154gr / 10g bullet in 6.5mm, I haven't done research but from somewhere the minimum requirement for large game has been established to be 10g/2000J/100m OR 9g/2700J/100m in many countries in north(ish) Europe. Obviously to match some cartridges in popular use in the day, and taking into account inferior bullet technology in the past. 6.5x55 cannot make the limit with 140gr / 9g bullets (unless SKAN / homeload).

As I have used the 6.5x55SE both here and abroad on small to large game I have started researching whether or not it makes sufficient energy levels in each of the factory loads I have selected. Short answer? Yes.

So the Hornady 140 gr SSTs are good for 2780J at 100m, the Sako 120 gr Powerhead IIs are circa 2419J. [either load exceeds UK legal minimum requirement for deer]

 

[jthyttin]

Actually Hornady figures are quoted for 100y not meters but it barely makes the limit at 100m too (2720 Joule according to JBM). Interesting that Superformance makes the limit, especially now that wild boar has been moved to the same category as moose and bear here in Finland.

One case where all 6.5mm WILL GET shafted is non-lead (wouldn't say nontoxic since e.g. copper is at least as bad) requirement if they're not dropping the bullet weight requirements at the same time. Just like 243 in UK.

 

[User00033]

Told ya.

Thing is, this argument is missing the point because large game keeps getting dragged into the equation when large game does not exist in the UK.

@jthyttin the Swedish rules for example are a little more detailed than you mention, two classes of 6.5mm bullet, 9-10g (139-154gr) require >2700J at 100m, whereas >10g (>154gr) requires >2000J at 100m. But these rules are specific to game including moose and bear as well as red deer. Do you see what I'm saying? The application of the cartridge we are debating here surely excludes moose and bear!

In Norway, the >154gr class requires an impact energy of 2200J at 100m! A 200J difference to the neighbours! And the roe numbers are different to Sweden too! The Germans just have 2000J @ 100m for all 6.5mm cartridges so any of the factory ammo is ok there. And the French, well I believe you can shoot anything with a .222 if you like, same as you can here in NZ... except of course you can't use a .223, but a .300 Win Mag is fine!

Austria... 5.5mm and a case length of 40mm (so .222 Rem) but with carcass weight / minimum energy req's, all fine and dandy but really really complicated to enforce... the Dutch are the same as the Norwegians (how odd!)... the Hungarians have gone the energy route but without any calibre restrictions... the Danes have gone with the Swedes, probably got something to do with the bridge... Italy, well a stolen WW2 Luger 9mm would probably be ok.

But what intrigues me is that Finland - where you're from I believe @jthyttin - appears to be completely different. I'm getting this from the European Federation for Hunting and Conservation (www.face.eu) so I do hope its correct. Now wild boar isn't in the moose and bear category in this list, nor is in mentioned on the Finnish Wildlife Agency list.

But it seems sensible to me, because boar are tough. Properly tough compared to deer.



The Finnish rules appear to be very sensible. A clear and logical approach. That's why we like Finns and Finns make better racing drivers than emotional Swedes or boring Norwegians.

And behold! In Finland, the regular 6.5x55m Swede is just fine, for everything other than brown bear and moose (and apparently pigs). In other words, the Finns agree its fine for the target games species relevant to the UK (and here). Some examples of common factory ammo energy thresholds:

Hornady Superformance 140gr: 2770 J at 100m
Federal Power Shok 140gr: 2521 J at 100m
Norma Nosler Partition 140gr: 2644 J at 100m

All this minimum energy nonsense is completely daft of course. Sure, using a 50gr on a moose deserves a kicking, but in the case of a 6.5x55 that is 100J below the minimum? Seriously? How is that practically enforceable?

The 6.5x55 is a perfectly fine cartridge for deer. If you live in Sweden, write a letter to your MP and explain why you're having to load your 140gr to high pressures just to shoot a fallow, and how completely dumb that is!

 

[jthyttin]

I was replying to Edi's post and there's also claims "millions of moose are shot with 6.5x55 so it must be OK".

The table is quite outdated, e.g.

- we can shoot everything but moose and large predators with bow (last two seasons)
- actually waiting to get moose on bow too but goverment resigned before getting the legislation in effect
- Class 0 has been 100 Joule for something like 10 years (so subsonic 22LR is OK)
- Class 1 now includes (for two seasons) also cartridges with 300J at muzzle with no weight limit (basically 17HMR but also other like >40gr 22cal CF)
- wild boar in Class 4 as mentioned

 

[1894]

My own personal experience in more detail:-

I shot enough through my custom 6.5x55 to have a severely eroded throat (high energy powders grrr) - I suspect about 1500 rounds. It's still unmoderated and although it's loud now I'm used to moderators, in it's day it was a pussycat. I only ever shot handloads and after playing around settled on 100gr ballistic tips for most things. I also used 120gr ballistic tips for Sussex fallow and 125gr partitions for scottish reds. Thus loaded it was flat shooting. I hit my stag in the heart at 275yards on a clearfell at last light with that 125gr starting out at 2,800fps and zeroed 1.5" high. I aimed 3/4 of the way up the body. I joked with Griff I was aiming for the ventricle but hit the atrium.

The 100gr BT is a great bullet, I shot Hertfordshire fallow across big fields including a 200yd headshot at a couched RTA. The fact I regularly used it on hares up there after a blank was a big help.

I then used it for 3 or so years of arable roe stalking. Loaded with 100gr BTs I must have shot about 100 roe. Bullet performance was range dependant. Hit a shoulder up close and there was damage but nowhere near as bad as my 7x57 (I'm not going to use an anaemic blunt hard bullet to shoot roe across fields), stretch the range to 250yards and hit between ribs and a roe could stand for a while. It seemed to be pretty much a slightly harder hitting 243 with a bit less of a sharp bark - whats not to like?

My sussex fallow stalking showed it's versatility - fields and woods. Bullet performance with the 120gr BT was excellent.

I think I've shot approximately 250 deer with mine and not once was I disapointed with the performance.

I do recognise poor performance - for me it has always been bullet or placement related.

I would equate it to a much harder hitting 243 and as such has some similarities

1. It's mild manners will allow pain free practice - you are likely to be more accurate with it

2. Don't expect to high lung shoot a large and aware stag on the edge of woodland at last light and it drop on the spot or to see much blood

I've prattled on long enough. Others may have shot more deer with theirs and found it wanting. Talking numbers is generally bad form but in this case I think it would be a help if people actually outlined the volume of experience that gave rise to their views.

 

[Carlsuffolk]

I've got the tikka t3x in 6.5x55 and in factory loads the Winchester 140 federal 140 lapua and sako 156 all have the same zero at 100metres I bought it new last year and 140 rounds later still haven't touched the scope since the initial zero, with the wildcat mod and my scope, it was about £1300, you can home load 100grain if you want to drop to smaller quarry and still get reds etc with the larger loads not a lot of factory below 120, most are 140 and up

 

[6pt-sika]

I've long had a hankering after a 6.5×57 or 57R. It doesn't really do anything another cartridge doesn't. It just seems sort of elegant, somehow.

I want a 6.5x57R also ! But I want it in a Sauer or Krieghoff drilling under 16 gauge barrels .