Stag with the blackpowder

[GSPhunter]

There probably would'nt be anything left worth keeping that's for sure. My comment was made tongue in cheek. It is illegal to use black powder weapons on deer in the UK due to the low muzzle velocity.

There is a minimum caliber for larger species of 240, smaller deer such as CWD and Muntjac can be taken with a 22 centre fire rifle. However in Scotland you can cull Roe with a 22 centre fire, but not in England, you need a minimum of 240 caliber.

I find that quite interesting, we can use muzzleloader rifles and bows on deer but for a red deer it's a minimum. 270 cal with 130gn projectile.

My 50 cal muzzleloader is almost ballistically identical to a 45/70 which I'm sure no one in the UK would consider as undergunned for game!

If they interest you and you're ever in my part of the world id be happy to take you out with my muzzleloader, she's not pretty but works well!

 

[JAYB]

True, I could and usually do ignore your posts, unfortunately other people read your posts and complain to us about your constant antagonistic attitude. Which means that as we have received a complaint then it has to be acted upon. This is not the first complain we have had about you and your attitude, you have been spoken to before about it, please make this the last occasion.

John

No more than you do by the looks of it. You could have simply ignored the post if it's not to your liking. In any event I feel it's a genuine question. There was some few objections raised against the use of a single shot rifle and indeed they were worthy of consideration. Given that I feel sure that I could make a follow up shot quicker with a single shot break barrel rifle than my Artillery Carbine .577 muzzle loader, I thought someone might make the same point and felt free to wonder why they haven't. It's not like I've disagreed with anyone on this.

 

[Shootist]

It is illegal to use black powder weapons on deer in the UK due to the low muzzle velocity.

This is true in Scotland, but not the rest of the UK. AFAIK, there is no velocity limitation. If I'm wrong then it's a good job I found out now. If I am wrong then could you kindly point out the legislation?

 

[GSPhunter]

I'd really prefer if people could keep arguments out of this thread.

Im interested in sharing my adventures not starting fights.

 

[JockStalk]

GSP - mate, I really enjoyed this - thanks for sharing.

Particularly 'when the smoke cleared he was down where he stood'.

When the smoke cleared!

 

[sikamalc]

This is true in Scotland, but not the rest of the UK. AFAIK, there is no velocity limitation. If I'm wrong then it's a good job I found out now. If I am wrong then could you kindly point out the legislation?

England and Wales.
All deer species. Min calibre 240. muzzle energy of 1700 ft pounds. CWD/Muntjac Min calibre .220. Muzzle energy 1000 ft pounds, bullet weight not less than 50g

Scotland. Muzzle energy 1750 ft pounds. Roe can be taken with smaller calibre muzzle energy 1000 ft pounds.

I assume you have passed DMQ Level 1 ?

I am not into ballistics and the whys and where for but in 40 years I have never seen or heard of anyone using a black powder weapon in the UK to take a deer. Maybe someone has, who knows and who cares??

I am aware that other countries such as USA and Australia allow this, and personally I have no issue with this at all. It is true what GPShunter has said. It would concentrate the mind of the shooter more as he/she knows that there is going to be only one shot, so it had better be on the money.

Now can we dispense with the argumentative posting.

 

[FISMA]

I'm using 110gn loose Alliant Black MZ powder. Have tried 90-130gn and this seems to shoot best.

Have you ever tried Triple 7 pellets? On game, I using nothing else.

I find having one shot and knowing you're not likely to get another (takes 30 seconds to reload on a good day I reckon)

Great time with loose powder. However, with pellets, you'll beat it handily.

Projectiles are hard to come by in Australia so I've only used two. 240gn Hornady xtp magnum sabot and 300 gn hornady fpb. Haven't used the latter on game.

I've tried the Barnes, with good results, but prefer the Hornady sabots you mentioned.

I am using a striker-fire Vortek by Traditions, scoped as mentioned. Plenty of accuracy out to 150ya and if you're willing to do a ladder test with loose powder, respectable precision.

So what's your ignition system - shotgun primer? Sounds like you're ready for a flintlock!

 

[John Gryphon]

I am not into ballistics and the whys and where for but in 40 years I have never seen or heard of anyone using a black powder weapon in the UK to take a deer.

We have to remember that BP was all they had some time back.

 

[GSPhunter]

Have you ever tried Triple 7 pellets? On game, I using nothing else.



Great time with loose powder. However, with pellets, you'll beat it handily.



I've tried the Barnes, with good results, but prefer the Hornady sabots you mentioned.

I am using a striker-fire Vortek by Traditions, scoped as mentioned. Plenty of accuracy out to 150ya and if you're willing to do a ladder test with loose powder, respectable precision.

So what's your ignition system - shotgun primer? Sounds like you're ready for a flintlock!

We can't get triple seven or BH209 in Australia.
I tried very hard, including calling importers and customs trying to get Barnes but they won't import them either.

You can buy Barnes centrefire but because MZ have never been put on the list of imports they refuse.

Yeh just the shotgun primer, I would like to try a caplock, not sure I could handle the feeling of a misfire on a big stag with a flintlock!

Sounds like a nice rig you have!

 

[devon deer stalker]

Gotta love the muzzle loader!
My friend in Montana offered me it free of charge to bring home, i wish i could have taken him up on it!
Really accurate gun, i wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it.
Short boring video.

Cheers
Richard

 

[FISMA]

We can't get triple seven or BH209 in Australia.
I tried very hard, including calling importers and customs trying to get Barnes but they won't import them either.

That's too bad, they're very handy, even come with a nice little speed-loader, fwiw.

Yeh just the shotgun primer, I would like to try a caplock, not sure I could handle the feeling of a misfire on a big stag with a flintlock!

+1

Sounds like a nice rig you have!

Thanks. It's a Cabela's special. Literally, walked in to the store, grabbed a shopping cart, and checked out.

Amazing what a bit of geography can do.

TBH - haven't shot it in a while. Been trying out the reverse draw x-bow, far west of the UK...



I think I could reload the ML faster than the Rx-Bow!

 

[BearStalker]

Is one allowed to use a BP in Scotland, if able to provide proof of required muzzle velocities? I am asking for two reasons; 1) because I don't remember reading it anywhere before, during or since completing my DSC 1; and 2)I my, in the not too distant future, inherit a .50Cal Hawkins BP and will need to know what to do with it.

 

[Shootist]

I might mention that at one club I know I saw someone using a .50 calibre modern inline muzzle loader rifle with sabotted bullets. The bullet passed completely though a bullet catcher known to stop .308 FMJ and went on to pass through a half inch steel plate.

I do not think that a .50 cal black powder muzzle loader would be able to produce 2,400fps with a round ball, which is what most Hawken copies are rifled for. If it could it would produce about 2,400 ft/lb. In Scotland it would be most unlikely that even a 45/70 cartridge rifle could be deer legal due to muzzle velocity requirements, notwithstanding that it is entirely capable of dropping Cape Buffalo. Not good enough for roe or small species deer (which it would about turn inside out) in Scotland even though Legal in England and Wales though. I haven't looked into the supersonic capabilities of black powder. I will do so and get back on it.

Here goes.

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.muzzleloader-ballistics.html

Looks a pretty useful site too.

 

[Uncle Norm]

There is no doubt that a black powder rifle can be loaded to meet the requirements for lawfully shooting deer in England and Wales. Scotland, with it's additional muzzle velocity prescription is a different matter, which is unlikely to be met.

In around 2002, there was considerable debate between BASC and ACPO regarding the authorisation of muzzle loading rifles for use in shooting deer.
This discussion went on for some time. The outcome was that ACPO would advise chief officers of police, not to authorise muzzle loading rifles for use on deer.

If memory serves correctly (increasingly doubtful) the main reason for the decision was the lack (or slow) availability of a second shot.
To the best of my knowledge, that is where the matter rests to date.

 

[mickthebrick]

If you look closely you can just see me dragging back a Roe buck I shot with my Brown Bess!

http://www.uoguelph.ca/news/images/fire_01.jpg

 

[norma 308]

Oh what fun you can have in the U.S. and Australia.
we cannot hunt with anything other than regular
rifles. I used to shoot black powder pistols and enfield rifles
years ago , dirty but great fun.

Jim Shockey shot a brecken stag a few yrs back with a muzzle loader over here in the uk

 

[enfieldspares]

It is illegal to use black powder weapons on deer in the UK due to the low muzzle velocity.

In fact, as Uncle Norm says, it isn't in England and Wales as long as it meets the muzzle energy requirements and it shouldn't be forgotten that not all black powder weapons are muzzle loaders. Some are breech loaders and some, using as was then the case, paper patched lead bullets will have a velocity edging towards and past 1600 fps and 1700fps.

That notwithstanding as Sikamalc says other than one acquaintance some thirty years ago...who used a double .450 or .500 Alex Henry, held on his licence, so before the days when these things became able to be possessed but not fired under s58, to do so (to give the gun one "last outing")...I don't know anybody who has done so to public knowledge in the last forty years.

But when it was done the deer rifle calibre here in UK, like his Alex Henry, was .500", .450" or smaller down to about .400". And you'll see some truly lovely doubles (and singles) in those calibres now and again in the quality London auction houses...breech or muzzle loading.

We now see these blackpowder .500"..450" and .400" rifles as "big bore". But in Victorian times they weren't. They were deer rifles for the UK or for India. And the Victorians and the likes of "Snaffles" in "Gun, Rifle and Hound" referred to them as "small bore"!

 

[Shootist]

I would love to own a double barrelled 45/70 but cost is prohibitive. The Marlin 45/70 will have to keep me going for now. On a recent visit to the Leeds armouries I saw a double barrelled rifle in 4 bore! Definitely not one to plink with.