What steel cartridge/shot size do you use on pigeons/corvids?
Happy birthday btw.
Steel on the crows today.
- Thread starter Smellydog
- Start date
Happy birthday btw.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
To expensive and the other can't be driven fast enough.
Obviously if you would like to make a substantial donation towards expensive shot I can use in my muzzleloaders I would view that as an extremely positive thing for you to do and feel greatly honoured.
As for your other comments not quoted here please indicate where upon a substance or other item has been banned and has out right prevented it use?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
If you go into a test with a negative mindset you will end up with a negative result.
Shooting is as much about mindset as it is the equipment. In one of his books Craig Boddington wrote about a 28 bore that he shot well. He then had an “expert” look at it who opined that the gun didn't fit him - and he could not hit a thing with that gun afterwards and then sold it. I have had the same experience with guns that I have owned.
Steel shot is different ballistically to lead shot. Indeed all brands of cartridges shoot differently. Steel starts off faster and so effect on lead and timing is a little different. It will often shoot a little differently on the pattern plate. Indeed gunsmiths of old would pattern a gun to the shooter and the cartridge the shooter preferred. Recoil, the shooter and how the gun is held will affect how a gun shoots and where the shot pattern goes.
Once this all gets into your head, you quickly start to find that you don’t centre the bird in the pattern, and thus get fewer clean kills.
I also do think that choice of No4 steel shot as it has the same weight as No6 lead is a mistake. Personally I think no5 is a better choice as you get a denser pattern with more pellets on target.
If you go in with a positive mindset you will soon tune into where a gun shoots - changing a gun and / or cartridges does just take a box or two of cartridges. Sometimes it takes a slab or two. Even going from shooting clays to shooting game takes adjustment - a flushing phaesant or a crow flying away from decoys accelerates, clays always slow down.
The plastic wad argument is moot. Many many lead loads use plastic wads as well - and I too am not a fan at all.
The biodegradable wads are definitely the way to go. There is an argument that they take time to breakdown. Card board and fibre wads also take time to break down.
As for steel in muzzle loaders. Have a look at American waterfowl hunters - they have had to use steel for years. Some still use muzzleloaders very effectively on ducks and geese with steel shot.
Shooting is as much about mindset as it is the equipment. In one of his books Craig Boddington wrote about a 28 bore that he shot well. He then had an “expert” look at it who opined that the gun didn't fit him - and he could not hit a thing with that gun afterwards and then sold it. I have had the same experience with guns that I have owned.
Steel shot is different ballistically to lead shot. Indeed all brands of cartridges shoot differently. Steel starts off faster and so effect on lead and timing is a little different. It will often shoot a little differently on the pattern plate. Indeed gunsmiths of old would pattern a gun to the shooter and the cartridge the shooter preferred. Recoil, the shooter and how the gun is held will affect how a gun shoots and where the shot pattern goes.
Once this all gets into your head, you quickly start to find that you don’t centre the bird in the pattern, and thus get fewer clean kills.
I also do think that choice of No4 steel shot as it has the same weight as No6 lead is a mistake. Personally I think no5 is a better choice as you get a denser pattern with more pellets on target.
If you go in with a positive mindset you will soon tune into where a gun shoots - changing a gun and / or cartridges does just take a box or two of cartridges. Sometimes it takes a slab or two. Even going from shooting clays to shooting game takes adjustment - a flushing phaesant or a crow flying away from decoys accelerates, clays always slow down.
The plastic wad argument is moot. Many many lead loads use plastic wads as well - and I too am not a fan at all.
The biodegradable wads are definitely the way to go. There is an argument that they take time to breakdown. Card board and fibre wads also take time to break down.
As for steel in muzzle loaders. Have a look at American waterfowl hunters - they have had to use steel for years. Some still use muzzleloaders very effectively on ducks and geese with steel shot.
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jthyttin
Well-Known Member
Who gave you the authority to decide that "like for like" means same pellet size at same speed?
Other parameters include price, payload weight, pellet count, pattern....
IME it's futile to compare standard steel to lead. First problem is, everybody's been shooting lead for years / decades and found their pet load. Then they go to store, buy just about the cheapest (standard) steel that's available and make the comparison.
Second is, steel has some benefits over lead. It will e.g. resist deformation much better, so you can use higher velocity. In your thinking, when comparing modern centerfire to black powder muzzle loader, you must download the centerfire to 1000-1500fps since that's the velocity of black powder...
And one parameter is the price. I've found that when you have suitable gun and choose smart when picking steel shotshells, they will outperform lead at similar price (talking about 50 cents per round, now everything's gone up and I'm not sure about the proportions). But you have to disassemble few rounds, pattern the rounds, preferably measure the velocity or at least test the penetration at distance. And have that suitable gun.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, if it’s not practical it’s not practical.
Your kindness and consideration truly touched my heart, however, being in the throes of an expensive transition to bismuth myself, I find myself temporarily financially embarrassed to the extent that I may have to reduce my own weekly subscription to the Guinness family trust.
I will keep the situation under review and should my circumstances change to the extent that I can consider further financial obligations in the future I will contact you directly.
I will need your bank details and PIN number.
It could save time if you were to PM them to me now.
My comment reflects the fact that your attitude towards using anything other than lead is not unusual. Your solution to the transition is also pretty common, which is one reason why there’s a proposal to ban
(Cue drumroll and quotes ) “the sale use or possession of lead ammunition “ post transition.
This is the threat that your CA and FACE have been fighting.
The reason why REACH and the government are reluctant to give exemptions is that they are expecting stockpiling. You can bet whatever small change you have left in your pocket after stocking up with whatever you stockpiled that they will be prepared to come down like a tonne of bricks on anyone found shooting prohibited ammo.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Thanks for you kind reply.
I like your other comments about shot size in steel, #5 may well be better.
I actually prefer #7 in lead for most game shooting, especially in my muzzleloaders.
By all means send me your bank and pin details so can assist you in your current financial burden
.When we have enough police to cover every other bush I may have an issue, we will have to wait on that one but I'm not going to have a knee trembler over it now
.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
That may account for some of your adverse results with steel. The advice is to go up 2 sizes, because of the reduced density you get more steel 5’s than lead in the same load. My personal choice is an ounce of lead 6’s, but if it has to be an ounce of steel 4’s I can live with it, most of my birds are shot at less than 40Yds over pointers, your mileage may vary, however I would predict that steel shot of any size won’t suit the “ extreme high pheasant” shots. I’ve seen those guys advocating 36-42 Grms of lead 3’s with shot to kill ratios of 10:1 or thereabouts from skilled guns.
I don’t like those figures, I don’t like the lack of respect shown to living creatures.
I’m happy to provide my bank details, once you have demonstrated your bona fides by providing yours, I asked first.By all means send me your bank and pin details so can assist you in your current financial burden
I’ve already ordered a slab of bismuth 6’s. I’m currently in negotiations with my insurance company to increase the limit on contents.
They’re being a bit thick about it, anyone would think I was storing gold bullion , come to think of it, given the cost of the slab they may not be too far off the mark.
The armed guards to accompany the shipment from the dealer to my door wont come cheap either.
I don’t think that’ll ever happen, I suspect that game on dealers racks will be sampled and where lead is found it will be traced back to the estate, shoot date and team.When we have enough police to cover every other bush I may have an issue, we will have to wait on that one but I'm not going to have a knee trembler over it now
Those little tags we put on game to facilitate traceability actually work.
If you’re just shooting for your own table, there should be no problem, until your cert comes up for renewal and your FEO inspects your ammunition storage arrangements.
That could be problematic.
You’ll probably get away with it if you’re not bothering anyone and keep the head down, that won’t be an option for the commercial operators.
May I also remark that you seem to having something completely different in mind when you mention “ knee trembler” than I was brought up with.
In my day, it wasn’t considered quite as good as a ride, but it was definitely far better than a wannk.
Just cultural differences I have no doubt.
That's what the phrase means. Who gave you the authority to assign different meanings to English words?
Yes and if you change any of the parameters, it's not "like for like".
Which is essentially what I said, so everything that follows this isn't relevant to the topic.
You can select any standard steel load you like, the fact is that it's ballistically inferior, because steel is ballistically inferior regardless of the branding and cost.
You could, but now you're comparing a standard load to a magnum and claiming that I'm the one making comparisons which aren't like for like.
In your thinking, you're pretending that you'd fire modern centrefire loads out of a black powder barrel. What you're actually doing is comparing different classes of firearms altogether.
All I am doing is making the comparison between equivalents. It is your thinking which is making spurious comparisons.
Let's be open-minded about this then. Which gun? Which lead and which steel cartridges?
Which sort of gives the lie to the whole thing, because the issue is not whether it's possible to find a gun which will fire steel acceptably (obviously it is), the issue is whether it is universally possible to swap lead loads for steel loads in every gun and achieve equal or better results.
Thanks for you kind reply.
I like your other comments about shot size in steel, #5 may well be better.
I actually prefer #7 in lead for most game shooting, especially in my muzzleloaders.
By all means send me your bank and pin details so can assist you in your current financial burden
When we have enough police to cover every other bush I may have an issue, we will have to wait on that one but I'm not going to have a knee trembler over it now
I use 32 gram Eley Bio Ammo 5 shot
Good in my opinion and wads gone very quickly SD
Try the Eley Bio wads SD
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
No mate, I'm good with lead
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