Steel shot being ingested

[VSS]

Take that as a yes then....

Take it as a no. I've never used Federal Fusion.
But if you mean "am I still using lead ammunition" the answer's yes.

I'm not particularly fussed about what the projectiles are made of, to be honest. If one product is no longer available I'll simply switch to another. Just like a kid with a catapult: When you ran out of ball bearings you didn't cry about it, you went to the toy shop and bought a cheap bag of glass marbles. And when you ran out of marbles you used stones. Which you could just as easily have started off with. Or made balls out of clay and baked them in the oven. They all worked, once you got used to their individual characteristics.

But I do think that some of the arguments put forward in support of continuing use of lead ammunition in firearms are a bit stupid. It's like the kid started crying when he had no ball bearings left and went running to mummy in a temper, instead of just picking up a bag of marbles or a handful of stones and continuing the game without interruption.

 

[Tim.243]

Avian Influenza is hard to prevent and will remain an issue for years to come. Birds dying from ingesting lead shot isn't hard to prevent, they are avoidable deaths

This from the GWCT site

How big is the problem?
Scientists estimate that millions of birds suffer from sub-lethal effects of lead shot every year throughout Europe(34). Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,00022 and 50-100,0001 birds are likely to perish in the UK each winter as a direct result of lead shot poisoning. Long-term monitoring found that 8.1% of birds found dead between 2000-2010 had died from ingesting lead pellets(12,23). Some animals had ingested hundreds of pellets(34).

I am surprised you chose to reply as when I posted to you my expensive bill from a miss diagnose a young vet made that nearly killed my dog and cost me 3.5 k you said nothing in the vet enquiry thread.
They sorted BSE and F&M over time.

The wigeon/teal are a dabbling duck, it surface-feeds on plants and seeds .. The shot falls to the bottom..

 

[Smellydog]

Take it as a no. I've never used Federal Fusion.
But if you mean "am I still using lead ammunition" the answer's yes.

I'm not particularly fussed about what the projectiles are made of, to be honest. If one product is no longer available I'll simply switch to another. Just like a kid with a catapult: When you ran out of ball bearings you didn't cry about it, you went to the toy shop and bought a cheap bag of glass marbles. And when you ran out of marbles you used stones. Which you could just as easily have started off with. Or made balls out of clay and baked them in the oven. They all worked, once you got used to their individual characteristics.

But I do think that some of the arguments put forward in support of continuing use of lead ammunition in firearms are a bit stupid. It's like the kid started crying when he had no ball bearings left and went running to mummy in a temper, instead of just picking up a bag of marbles or a handful of stones and continuing the game without interruption.

Why who's crying?

I'm pleased with my purchase today.
I'm going to continue using lead.
I'm not upset.
Tell me, who is it?

 

[Buchan]

Estimate?????? How many and in what locations? Thats a lot of birds to be picked up and tested and what species. Game song waterfowl????

8.1% of how many birds? Lots.... millions..... or a few?

Word salad and spurious propaganda. Sorry but thats how it reads.

Frankly one bird dying as a result of the pollution from shooting another bird is too many.

 

[Smellydog]

Frankly one bird dying as a result of the pollution from shooting another bird is too many.

What about the bird run over on the way to the shoot?
Absolutely absurd. You take such a moral high ground but shoot birds or at least support the shooting of birds.
Do you have pseudo conscience issues?

 

[Buchan]

I am surprised you chose to reply as when I posted to you my expensive bill from a miss diagnose a young vet made that nearly killed my dog and cost me 3.5 k you said nothing in the vet enquiry thread.
They sorted BSE and F&M over time.

The wigeon/teal are a dabbling duck, it surface-feeds on plants and seeds .. The shot falls to the bottom..

You'll see from previous threads I make general observations on requests for advice, as getting into the specifics of a case without full details is not appropriate.

 

[paul o']

In Scotland and Northern Ireland it is permissible to use lead shot to shoot any species outside wetlands.ie stubble fields etc

 

[Rewulf]

Frankly one bird dying as a result of the pollution from shooting another bird is too many.

What a bizarre thing to say.
Literally 10s of millions of birds are bred to be shot every year, we have created a billion pound industry out of it , but you are worried about the pollution effects from it ?
What about the effects of agriculture, pesticides, roadkill and predation ?

Must we ban everything that causes secondary deaths, because those deaths are 'unjust' ?
Because that world would be a very strange place.

 

[Tim.243]

Frankly one bird dying as a result of the pollution from shooting another bird is too many.

Frankly one horse dying at the grand national is one too many but they haven't banned that yet..

 

[jimmer.13]

Spurious statements and statistics, alarmist statements on adverse health implications.
It seems that certain shooters are keen to see the demise of our sport and industry. Use steel or whatever your conscience allows you but the constant virtue signalling will kill our way of life eventually.

Queers for Palestine and chickens for KFC anyone……..seriously…..anyone

 

[Liveonce]

1) Course you can ! - Come and help us coppice - log - fell - feed - No problem
But dont forget its all relative isnt it
2) A good meal out and a few drinks 100 quid
3) A day at the footy 100 quid

A day shooting pheasants on a syndicate need not cost more than a few hundred quid - yes to some out of reach - but to many doable if they want

sadly reached the age where 1) is no longer tenable but have done in the past.
2) fish and chips and not a penny more
3) now you are joking would not be seen dead at a football match, over paid lot they all are for playing with their balls.

I finally concluded a days pigeon shooting was far more rewarding and challenging than paying for driven game birds.

 

[VSS]

Spurious statements and statistics, alarmist statements on adverse health implications.
It seems that certain shooters are keen to see the demise of our sport and industry. Use steel or whatever your conscience allows you but the constant virtue signalling will kill our way of life eventually.

Queers for Palestine and chickens for KFC anyone……..seriously…..anyone

The demise of shooting won't be because we've run out of lead. It'll be because we're absolutely **** at PR.

 

[jall55]

sadly reached the age where 1) is no longer tenable but have done in the past.
2) fish and chips and not a penny more
3) now you are joking would not be seen dead at a football match, over paid lot they all are for playing with their balls.

I finally concluded a days pigeon shooting was far more rewarding and challenging than paying for driven game birds.

Yes i like pigeon shooting too - crows my favourite i think though - or squirrels or rats hahaha

Each to their own isnt it really - i like the crack of the pheasants and the work it gets done for the habitat and the amount of feed we get thrown about helping so much other stuff too
And i also really like pheasant for dinner

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The old saying Conor, "You have got to clean your own house first" So lets sort out the UK as N. America can stand on their own two feet.
As a BSAC member of an Essex Wildfowling club I am disappointed you chose data from another country in your reply
UK AI deaths for wildfowl birds against lead ingested death would be a good start.

I didn't find an equivalent graph for causes of bird mortality in UK to N. America but I guess if one were available domestic cats would be top of the chart with estimates of 27-55 million birds killed annually in UK from various species (based on several modelling studies).

The British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) estimates that “many more than 20,000” wild birds have died in the UK from AI since the current outbreak began in October 2021.

Estimated annual deaths due to lead shot in UK are between 50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl annually with a further estimated 200,000 to 400,000 birds suffering welfare or health impacts.

So, based on all those estimates it's cats, then lead shot and then AI with lots of other causes of mortality in-between.

We have no say in the use of bells by cat owners or the spread of AI and as you say "You have got to clean your own house first" and that is the point of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. And evidence that this voluntary transition is reducing the amount of lead shot being used in live quarry shooting, thus reducing impact on wild birds eating it as grit, will continue to be a key argument against legal restrictions being imposed on us as a result of government decisions being made based on the HSE lead ammunition review recommendations expected this autumn. In other words we can move away from lead shot for live quarry in a voluntary phased manner or we have it imposed on us - possibly as a cliff edge decision by the incoming or subsequent governments.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The wigeon/teal are a dabbling duck, it surface-feeds on plants and seeds .. The shot falls to the bottom..

Here is a paper from 1983.

The incidence and significance of ingested lead pellet poisoning in British Wildfowl

For a range of species, including pink-footed goose, white-fronted goose, barnacle goose, wigeon, teal, pintail, shoveler, scaup and moorhen, recorded incidences were either very low or zero. Relatively high incidences were noted for swans, greylag goose (7·1% of shot birds), gadwall (11·8%), mallard (4·2%), pochard (10·9%), tufted duck (11·7%) and goldeneye (6·7%).

Here is a 2023 update from Scotland:

Recent European Union bans on lead shot use over wetlands may reduce lead ingestion in waterfowl if compliance rates are high, but as foraging often occurs outside wetlands (as in this study), further restrictions including use on other key foraging sites may help to further mitigate the risk of lead poisoning in waterfowl.

https://pureadmin.uhi.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/38784090/120_Ibis_Geese_on_Islay_Pb_shot.pdf

Here is a BASC blog post from 2020.

I remained involved in the lead shot debate at an international level and in or around 1989 attended a key conference in Brussel on lead ammunition. Again, my presentation was in defence of the continued use of lead. I can assure you that I was not a popular speaker at that event and everything possible was done by the organisers to derail me, including cutting my presentation from 20 minutes to 10. Within BASC I was not the only one defending lead – Dr John Harradine’s work over decades should be applauded by the shooting community. Without his contribution, on behalf of BASC, we would now have been paralleling Denmark and probably recognising 25 years of being lead free.

Lead Shot: A Historical Reflection

In this blog, BASC Scotland director, Dr Colin Shedden, explores BASC’s long-standing involvement with lead shot and how the policy and science has evolved over the years.

basc.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Tim.243 as a final point it is not only about statistics it's about our conservation efforts and what could be more important than our concern for the return of wild grey partridge across the UK. And lead shot could be a limiting factor in that recovery.

Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks? - ShootingUK

ShootingUK News - Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks?

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[Tim.243]

I didn't find an equivalent graph for causes of bird mortality in UK to N. America but I guess if one were available domestic cats would be top of the chart with estimates of 27-55 million birds killed annually in UK from various species (based on several modelling studies).

The British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) estimates that “many more than 20,000” wild birds have died in the UK from AI since the current outbreak began in October 2021.

Estimated annual deaths due to lead shot in UK are between 50,000 to 100,000 wildfowl annually with a further estimated 200,000 to 400,000 birds suffering welfare or health impacts.

So, based on all those estimates it's cats, then lead shot and then AI with lots of other causes of mortality in-between.

We have no say in the use of bells by cat owners or the spread of AI and as you say "You have got to clean your own house first" and that is the point of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. And evidence that this voluntary transition is reducing the amount of lead shot being used in live quarry shooting, thus reducing impact on wild birds eating it as grit, will continue to be a key argument against legal restrictions being imposed on us as a result of government decisions being made based on the HSE lead ammunition review recommendations expected this autumn. In other words we can move away from lead shot for live quarry in a voluntary phased manner or we have it imposed on us - possibly as a cliff edge decision by the incoming or subsequent governments.

As I said Ai kills with out a shot being fired and affects a huge part of the food industry which has nothing to do with N. A or cats. Pigeons eat the grit off the sides of road each year with no shot laying on them...
Dabbling ducks feed on the surface.

Take out North America also steel shot has been used in England for 20 plus years so the ducks on the marshes don't live that long!
Cats lol you are clutching at straws, cats have been 500 AD, cats had become used to living with people. As the Romans empire gets bigger, they introduce cats to the whole of Europe, including Britain.


Blame the cats they have only been here

Yes they will kill birds so do magpies jays squirrels badgers foxes and crows...

 

[jall55]

@Tim.243 as a final point it is not only about statistics it's about our conservation efforts and what could be more important than our concern for the return of wild grey partridge across the UK. And lead shot could be a limiting factor in that recovery.

Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks? - ShootingUK

ShootingUK News - Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks?

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Conor
I wonder if we are pressing self destruct with articles like this ?

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

@Tim.243 as a final point it is not only about statistics it's about our conservation efforts and what could be more important than our concern for the return of wild grey partridge across the UK. And lead shot could be a limiting factor in that recovery.

Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks? - ShootingUK

ShootingUK News - Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks?

www.shootinguk.co.uk

I am reading all this with great interest.

But let’s focus on the watch word of your last post “Could” so let’s be frank all this is all hearsay and lip service until it’s proven to be actually accurate which will probably never be proven.

For the record I have not shot shotgun for years, the last time was when I was a member of 2 wildfowling clubs.

People get me wrong I am not anti shooting in any way, i am an ex keeper, but I have zero tolerance of horlicks, I deal in black and white proven evidence, to which I am yet to see any.

 

[Tim.243]

@Tim.243 as a final point it is not only about statistics it's about our conservation efforts and what could be more important than our concern for the return of wild grey partridge across the UK. And lead shot could be a limiting factor in that recovery.

Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks? - ShootingUK

ShootingUK News - Is lead shot killing wild grey chicks?

www.shootinguk.co.uk

The country side habit is not set up these days for Greys if it was then shoots would put them down and promote them but the Reg legs hold better, A farmer I know released 100 greys never to be seen again.