Tail docking a spaniel?

[Apthorpe]

Just an old fashioned practice not really needed, imo.
If people want shorter tailed dogs then breeders should be breeding them with shorter tails, not cutting them off. It wouldn't be difficult to do.

Wouldn't it? I'd imagine breeding to reduce (or increase) the number of vertebrae would be damn near impossible.

My daughter's working spaniel (deer tracking) isn't docked, and has no issues. Neither of my terriers are docked, and no issues there either.

 

[Apthorpe]

or breed spaniels with less less prone to damage. There really is no reason for docking other than tradition.

Is your veterinary advice is that spaniels working in heavy cover won't get tail injuries?
What is the cause of the injuries to tails which I've observed and which owners here have frequently had?

And tradition is just peer pressure from dead people

That is a particularly stupid sentence.

 

[tackb]

my preference would be docked at birth , my spangel wasn't and suffered tail damage that was slow to heal every season until my vet (who i shoot with) docked him and as stated it's more complicated when they are older

i only had the last third if that removed and it instantly solved the issue

does docking cause more issues than not docking ?

 

[Apthorpe]

So far 9 live people favour docking to prevent frequent injury, and 3 including a vet don't, although one of those isnt habitually worked in heavy cover. Hmm, cui bono?

 

[VSS]

Wouldn't it? I'd imagine breeding to reduce (or increase) the number of vertebrae would be damn near impossible.

No. Not too difficult. It's being done with sheep breeds, particularly in countries where docking is now either banned or has to be carried out by a vet. A few forward thinking flock owners are doing it in the UK now too, because it's only a matter of time before it's banned here.
It's no different from selecting for any other characteristic.
Easy enough to create a "tail score" system, based on tail length, then discard those individuals that have a longer than average tail for breed, and actively select those that have a shorter than average tail for breed. The shorter the tail the higher the score, so you'd mate together animals with high scores to achieve your result. And then select from the offspring the ones with the shortest tails (highest score) to breed the next generation, and so on.

The beauty of it is that it would actually have a practical application (unlike breeding for squashed noses for example).
Breeders' organisations ought to be promoting it as an acceptable alternative to docking.

 

[Apthorpe]

No. Not too difficult. It's being done with sheep breeds, particularly in countries where docking is now either banned or has to be carried out by a vet. A few forward thinking flock owners are doing it in the UK now too, because it's only a matter of time before it's banned here.
It's no different from selecting for any other characteristic.
Easy enough to create a "tail score" system, based on tail length, then discard those individuals that have a longer than average tail for breed, and actively select those that have a shorter than average tail for breed. The shorter the tail the higher the score, so you'd mate together animals with high scores to achieve your result. And then select from the offspring the ones with the shortest tails (highest score) to breed the next generation, and so on.

The beauty of it is that it would actually have a practical application (unlike breeding for squashed noses for example).
Breeders' organisations ought to be promoting it as an acceptable alternative to docking.

Had a google. Interesting to see there's a lot of variation the numbers of tail vertebrae in boths dogs and sheep. I'd thought that adding or deleting bones would be very tricky.

If you were a bit more forward thinking you could breed your sheep with opposable thumbs so thst they could look after a lot of their own problems.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I had my last litter docked at my local vets and they wanted to have proof that I work them and wanted proof of ownership of the bitch etc,before they would dock. But they done them in the end. It was a lot of hassle but worth it in the long run, and it’s only done with a pair of sharp scissors.

I used to do all my pups with toenail clippers, the type which uses the Guillotine principle of separating the appendages. Never had a problem, I often look back to those times fondly, less red tape and nothing ever took much harm.

 

[Dunwaters]

Have you ever tried selectively breeding short tailed animals from long tailed animals? It's not as difficult as you think. Fact is, it's been too easy to simply dock them, but if breeders had really had their eye on the ball they'd have done it by now.

Not personally tried to breed one, but I have snipped the tails off several litters back when it was legal.
You’re right about it being easy, or at least it used to be.

That's just nonsense. We're talking working dogs here

No, thinking that you can unilaterally change internationally agreed breed standards without consultation is nonsense.
Like it or not, pedigree dogs are valuable precisely because they have a pedigree and known lineage, just like thoroughbred horses.
I’ll happily pay for a pup with a known lineage, I’m too old to take more of a risk than I have to before I invest 2years of my life in an unknown quantity.
I’ll bet you a penny to a pint that you yourself are pretty selective when it comes to your sheep dogs.

 

[old keeper]

When I was keepering all too often white coloured undocked Spaniels ended the day with red sides! I suspect much depends on the sort of undergrowth they're working. Where brambles are prevalent tail injuries are almost inevitable

 

[VSS]

Not personally tried to breed one, but I have snipped the tails off several litters back when it was legal.
You’re right about it being easy, or at least it used to be.


No, thinking that you can unilaterally change internationally agreed breed standards without consultation is nonsense.
Like it or not, pedigree dogs are valuable precisely because they have a pedigree and known lineage, just like thoroughbred horses.
I’ll happily pay for a pup with a known lineage, I’m too old to take more of a risk than I have to before I invest 2years of my life in an unknown quantity.
I’ll bet you a penny to a pint that you yourself are pretty selective when it comes to your sheep dogs.

Pedigree and known lineage wouldn't change. See my post #25. No crossbreeding involved, just selection from within existing known bloodlines. The resulting offspring could not legally be refused registration in their respective stud books.

 

[Dunwaters]

Pedigree and known lineage wouldn't change. See my post #25. No crossbreeding involved, just selection from within existing known bloodlines. The resulting offspring could not legally be refused registration in their respective stud books.

Ok, find me a line of stub tailed GSP’s and I’m in.
You might want to check the breed standard first.

 

[VSS]

Ok, find me a line of stub tailed GSP’s and I’m in.
You might want to check the breed standard first.

If you want a line of short tailed GSPs you'll have to breed them, as I described. But it can be done. Maybe not as short as they would be if docked, but short enough.
As for breed standards, an organisation cannot legally refuse registration to an animal born of pedigree registered parents, even if it doesn't meet current breed standards. And remember, we're talking about working dogs here, so the most important characteristic is its working ability. Looks are only important in the show ring, and that's a contentious subject in itself.

 

[Buchan]

If you want to see how breeding can affect dogs, just look at the squashed faced breeds, within 10 years they've gone from problematic to a disaster. So it would be possible to breed a spaniel with a fatter tail that could cope with the injury. I accept the injuries occur, but hacking off part of the anatomy to solve a problem created by deliberate breeding isn't a sustainable option. And it is a welfare issue for the pups as they do feel the pain.

 

[Hambone]

Just an old fashioned practice not really needed, imo.
If people want shorter tailed dogs then breeders should be breeding them with shorter tails, not cutting them off. It wouldn't be difficult to do.

My daughter's working spaniel (deer tracking) isn't docked, and has no issues. Neither of my terriers are docked, and no issues there either.

Deer tracking is not why working Spaniels get docked!

 

[VSS]

Deer tracking is not why working Spaniels get docked!

Do deer not die in thick cover?

 

[Hambone]

Do deer not die in thick cover?

yes they do but a Spaniel looking for one deer is not even close to doing the work of one pushing small game. Surprised I need to point out the difference to be honest.

 

[VSS]

yes they do but a Spaniel looking for one deer is not even close to doing the work of one pushing small game. Surprised I need to point out the difference to be honest.

Regardless of the difference, the dogs are not fit for purpose if their work is causing them injury. The fault lies in the breeding, but docking has enabled people to bypass that.
Breeders should step up to the plate and deal with it properly.

I’ll bet you a penny to a pint that you yourself are pretty selective when it comes to your sheep dogs.

Interesting that you should say that. In the past I was quite particular about it, but my current best sheepdog is of completely unknown parentage. I bought her (for a not inconsiderable sum) purely because I liked the way she worked. Which is the only thing that matters really.
So I'll claim that pint off you one of these days

 

[barbel]

worked with dogs all my life, when they don't on the beats, looks like rats tails and bloody in thick thorn bushes, surely that tail whipping about, less chance of damage, if short.

 

[baguio]

Considering that every working spaniel of any quality at all is docked, it is impossible to know which ones would have had short or long tails. The only way to breed for short tails would be to ban tail docking. Then it would take another 100 years or so to notice any real difference in tail length and that would also require not breeding some fantastic dogs that win loads of awards because they had long tails. The quality of working spaniels would certainly suffer for the sake potentially making a small difference to the length of spaniels tails and a whole lot of suffering from a 100 years of long tailed spaniels injuring their tails. The only winners would be the vets IMO!

 

[Hambone]

Regardless of the difference, the dogs are not fit for purpose if their work is causing them injury. The fault lies in the breeding, but docking has enabled people to bypass that.
Breeders should step up to the plate and deal with it properly.



Interesting that you should say that. In the past I was quite particular about it, but my current best sheepdog is of completely unknown parentage. I bought her (for a not inconsiderable sum) purely because I liked the way she worked. Which is the only thing that matters really.
So I'll claim that pint off you one of these days

So maybe I am missing your point but I get the impression your a sheep farmer so a couple of questions... Does anyone still use rubber rings to dock lambs tails? Has anyone bread a strain of sheep that don't need dipping ETC?