Tail docking a spaniel?

Considering that every working spaniel of any quality at all is docked, it is impossible to know which ones would have had short or long tails. The only way to breed for short tails would be to ban tail docking. Then it would take another 100 years or so to notice any real difference in tail length and that would also require not breeding some fantastic dogs that win loads of awards because they had long tails. The quality of working spaniels would certainly suffer for the sake potentially making a small difference to the length of spaniels tails and a whole lot of suffering from a 100 years of long tailed spaniels injuring their tails. The only winners would be the vets IMO!
No. You could tail score all the pups in a litter before the age at which they would normally be docked.
And it wouldn't take anywhere near as long as you think to make a difference to natural tail length.
Whichever way you look at it, if, for welfare reasons, you consider it necessary to have a dog with a short tail, its got to be better to have a dog with a naturally short tail than one that needs its tail cut off.

If breeders were to act on this now, then they would be the winners, not vets. Vets will only be the winners if short-sighted breeders and narrow-minded buyers keep ignoring the issue.
 
So maybe I am missing your point but I get the impression your a sheep farmer so a couple of questions... Does anyone still use rubber rings to dock lambs tails? Has anyone bread a strain of sheep that don't need dipping ETC?
No need to reply one this on. I just done a quick google. 😂 😂 😂😂
 
So maybe I am missing your point but I get the impression your a sheep farmer so a couple of questions... Does anyone still use rubber rings to dock lambs tails?
Yes, in the UK rubber rings are still used for docking lambs tails in some breeds and management systems, but, after having seen what's happened in other countries where it's been banned, and seeing the succes that they've had in breeding shorter tailed dag-free sheep, some progressive breeders in the UK are following suit.

Has anyone bread a strain of sheep that don't need dipping ETC?
Yes.
The most recent development in the UK in this respect is the Exlana breed, but there are others. Exlana breeders are also actively selecting for shorter tails.
 
To dock or not to dock.. that is the question no $hit $herlock...

I think we are all worrying unduly, now that Labour is in the driving seat I think we may be on borrowed time for our pursuits of game with dogs of any type.

I hope I'm wildly wrong...
 
No. You could tail score all the pups in a litter before the age at which they would normally be docked.
And it wouldn't take anywhere near as long as you think to make a difference to natural tail length.
Whichever way you look at it, if, for welfare reasons, you consider it necessary to have a dog with a short tail, its got to be better to have a dog with a naturally short tail than one that needs its tail cut off.

If breeders were to act on this now, then they would be the winners, not vets. Vets will only be the winners if short-sighted breeders and narrow-minded buyers keep ignoring the issue.
They get docked within 48 hrs of birth though. They all look exactly the same. My next door neighbours had a springer litter only 10 weeks ago. All of their tails are tiny at that age. Are you saying that you would only allow breeding from the dogs that had a tail a micron shorter than the others, regardless of it's quality as a working dog. The best dogs would be banned from breeding because the breeder thought that that that their tail was tool long, in their opinion?
 
They get docked within 48 hrs of birth though. They all look exactly the same. My next door neighbours had a springer litter only 10 weeks ago. All of their tails are tiny at that age. Are you saying that you would only allow breeding from the dogs that had a tail a micron shorter than the others, regardless of it's quality as a working dog. The best dogs would be banned from breeding because the breeder thought that that that their tail was tool long, in their opinion?
It's not a case of what would be "allowed" or not, it's a case of whether any individual breeder (or, better still, breeders' association) has sufficient foresight to introduce tail length into their selection criteria alongside the other characteristics that they currently select for. You wouldn't select for tail length to the exclusion of all else.

No different from selectively breeding any livestock. For example, I ultrasound scan the loins of all my lambs in order to rank them for muscularity and potential lean meat yield, so that I can actively select to retain breeding stock that will produce better carcasses. But I'd be a fool if that was all I selected for! I also collect data that enables me to select for a wide range of other economically significant characteristics such as litter size, maternal ability, longevity, mature size, etc etc. The use of DNA sampling and genomic has accelerated the process no end due to the increased accuracy of the predicted outcome of proposed matings.
 
Yes, in the UK rubber rings are still used for docking lambs tails in some breeds and management systems, but, after having seen what's happened in other countries where it's been banned, and seeing the succes that they've had in breeding shorter tailed dag-free sheep, some progressive breeders in the UK are following suit.


Yes.
The most recent development in the UK in this respect is the Exlana breed, but there are others. Exlana breeders are also actively selecting for shorter tails.
Again I do not want to belabour the point but surely tail docking a lamb to prevent future suffering is no different to tail docking a pup to prevent future suffering!!!
In fact the quick look I had on google of the rubber ring method used by sheep farmers is positively barbaric compared to the way pups are done.
 
Pretty much a must for any spaniels that are living their working lives in heavy cover.
Every one i've had has come docked,but has had to go shorter yet due to the damage done and i know my new pup will require the same come time.
As usual some absolute rot posted on these threads from the experts on everything.
 
Again I do not want to belabour the point but surely tail docking a lamb to prevent future suffering is no different to tail docking a pup to prevent future suffering!!!
In fact the quick look I had on google of the rubber ring method used by sheep farmers is positively barbaric compared to the way pups are done.
No, it's no different at all.
But I could introduce you to several influential sheep breeders who are actively breeding sheep with shorter tails to remove the need for docking.
Do you know of any dog breeders doing the same?
 
I wouldn't even consider buying a spaniel that wasn't docked. Just asking for vet bills IMO. I have seen two working dogs that had nothing more than stumps because once damaged they wont heal without being cut really short. They were both spaniels that had been docked originally but still damaged the end of their tails.
 
No, it's no different at all.
But I could introduce you to several influential sheep breeders who are actively breeding sheep with shorter tails to remove the need for docking.
Do you know of any dog breeders doing the same?
No I don't and in an ideal world brambles wouldn't have thorns. I don't think working dogs have enough time left in the UK to have their tails bread out and as previously stated on this thread the loss of desirable traits would be detrimental to the breed.
 
Regardless of the difference, the dogs are not fit for purpose if their work is causing them injury. The fault lies in the breeding, but docking has enabled people to bypass that.
Breeders should step up to the plate and deal with it properly.



Interesting that you should say that. In the past I was quite particular about it, but my current best sheepdog is of completely unknown parentage. I bought her (for a not inconsiderable sum) purely because I liked the way she worked. Which is the only thing that matters really.
So I'll claim that pint off you one of these days 😉
Not fit for purpose? Spaniels go though cover that most breeds wouldn’t entertain. Not fit for purpose??
 
No, it's no different at all.
But I could introduce you to several influential sheep breeders who are actively breeding sheep with shorter tails to remove the need for docking.
Do you know of any dog breeders doing the same?
But dogs are bred for their ability to work/hunt. Sheep bred for meat production.
 
Regardless of the difference, the dogs are not fit for purpose if their work is causing them injury. The fault lies in the breeding, but docking has enabled people to bypass that.
Breeders should step up to the plate and deal with it properly.
Maybe you are right, but the fact remains that some breeds of dog are pretty much predisposed to tail damage when worked as intended.
I currently have 2 working pointers, one is docked, no problems, the other isn’t and she’s a well feathered long hair, she damages the very tip of her tail if worked hard in heavy cover and strips it bare. It takes a long time to heal.
Up to very recently, the solution was to dock their tails, simple, cheap and very effective. Enter the Animal welfare brigade, docking in both your jurisdiction and mine is now very difficult and requires veterinary intervention. But that’s only in these islands, in the rest of the world docking is not an issue, so the time proven solution is what we see.
Personally I would dock, I have done and frankly I don’t have enough time left on the planet to make it worth my while developing a strain of bob tailed GSP’s.
I also suspect that it might not work, a proper dock is to 2/3s, removing the last 1/3 where the skin and hair cover is thinnest, nerves and blood supply seem to be scarcest the tail is moving fast and damage seems to be concentrated. If I breed for a shorter tail, I still get the lack of skin and hair at the tip, which means I’m going to have to take it right back to the scut.
Doable, maybe, but …..someone else can take it on. I’m too old for this shite.
Call me when you have it sorted, meanwhile I’ll carry on doing what I know from experience works at least until my current vet retires.


Interesting that you should say that. In the past I was quite particular about it, but my current best sheepdog is of completely unknown parentage. I bought her (for a not inconsiderable sum) purely because I liked the way she worked. Which is the only thing that matters really.
So I'll claim that pint off you one of these days 😉
Thats definitely one way to do it, run a dog on until it proves itself, but its bloody expensive, not many of us can afford to run a litter on for a year or more until they sort themselves out.
Its also going to be a bit of a wrench getting rid of the no hopers at that age, they’ll be taking a one way trip to the vets.
I knew a guy who did it, but it required a level of ruthlessness that I just don't have.
Pedigree dogs aren’t cheap, but they're cheaper than that. You still get no guarantees, but you do tip the odds a bit more in your favour than if you took a trip to your local rescue center and adopted the first likely mutt you saw.
The pint is still up for grabs, you were very selective, bet you another pint that the bitch you bought has a solid working pedigree.
Maybe no papers, but solid working stock for as far back as you care to go.

Tell you what, breed yourself a strain of sheep that don't need their tails and balls removed with rubber rings and this time next year you’ll be a millionaire.
You’ll make even more money if you can stop their hooves from needing to be trimmed and fleece from growing out of their arseholes where it accumulates flies and shite.
I’ll up the odds to 2 more pints.
 
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Had a very heated argument with my cocker just last weekend as was full of those spiky thistle things. Took ages to get out and he was very unhappy about it. Would always be a dock from me even with a short tail it’s a pain.
 
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