Target shooting calibre

Precision123

Well-Known Member
Bit of an odd one.

I hear that the Olympics don't use .308 anymore, but the commonwealth games do. And there's a rumour that they may drop .308 because more and more countries are saying that they don't have the training facilities.

So the question is, what calibre would they standardise on? .223? Or would one of the newer calibres (6.5mm Creedmoor) step in?

The reason I ask is because i'm after a new paper hole puncher, and was going for 6.5mm and then thought nah, i'll use .308. And then I thought... Well, you know where thinking gets you!

Whaddya reckon?

P123
 
If you are of a standard to shoot in the olympics, the commonwealth games or ISSF 300m shoots then congratulations, you will already know what calibers are allowed in those events :-D Alternatively if you are a mere mortal like the rest of us then you will be competing under UK NRA Rules, UK F Class rules, UK Gallery rifle rules, UK Target shotgun rules, UK Sporting rifle rules, or UK benchrest rules. A quick google search will locate the rulebooks for the organisation covering the target event you are interested in, you will need to find them and read them. You really do need to read them because calibers are event specific. Traditional target shooting with centerfire rifles where you shoot prone, supporting the rifle with a single point sling, only allows 308 or 223 in the UK. Most people use 308 as it's performance is better at longer ranges. If you want a 6.5 Creedmore then look at F class Open events (not F/TR) or possibly benchrest though I believe 6mm ppc is more popular.
Regards Sarah
 
As far as I'm aware neither the Olympics nor Commonwealth games have incorporated any centrefire rifle shooting disciplines for a long time, the shooting sports being pistol (with attempts to have firearms versions of those removed) and longarms restricted to .22LR and air weapons plus shotguns in various clay shooting disciplines, the rimfire maybe only in the Winter Olympics for the skiing / shooting Biathlon.

Serious target shooting is very much run by national shooting bodies with overarching regulations (technical and competitions / courses of fire etc) and management by international bodies either for an individual discipline or group of them membership being representatives of the participating national bodies such as our NRA and NSRA. So 'Fullbore' and smallbore, Gallery Rifle, Historic Arms, Muzzleloading and ISSF/CISM are all run separately, no doubt others too although at national level they may be grouped under a smaller number of bodies, such as the NRA and NSRA here.

So far as fullbore rifle shooting disciplines go, many have their backgrounds and hence regulations dictated by past military associations and a role in training marksmen for time of war, supplying shooting instructors and so on. Both the NRA and NSRA have this background, the latter arising out of the SMRC (Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs) which was part of the post Boer War 'militia movement' and which with money and push from the War Office and Lord Roberts of Khandahar aimed to have a 'miniature' rifle range in every town in the country to teach basic shooting skills.

The NRA and its predecessors was closely aligned to mainstream military training, Service Rifle competition and the primary service cartridge of the day. That applies to most such bodies in western countries including the US NRA. However, unlike remaining close links between the US NRA, the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) and the US DoD so that High-Power Service Rifle is still a large civilian discipline shot to a course of fire that is still recognisable to that adopted with early smokeless cartridge 'small-bore' magazine rifles and which uses civilian versions of current service weapons (ie heavily modified AR-15 semi-auto versions of the M16), the UK MoD announced years ago that whilst shooting competition as run by the NRA here is a worthwhile pastime and encourages service personnel to participate, it has no valid training role and its skills have little use in today's military world.

So, cartridges and calibres are dependent basically on the rules and regulations of individual disciplines, and for general range use not shot under NRA rules (but which can be individual club ones) it's up to the individual what he or she shoots subject to range certification limits and/or MoD regulations when military ranges are used.

The traditional prone disciplines and those evolving from them 'Target Rifle', 'Match Rifle' 'Palma Rifle' and their recent offshoot the FTR offshoot of F-Class have retained the military cartridge links which back in 1968 when ROF Radway Green stopped manufacturing .303, have been limited to 308 Win plus more recently .223 Rem - and .303 is still allowed although nobody has used it in a long time other than in 'Historic Rifle'.

F-Class (usually called 'F-Open' to distinguish it from the FTR restricted version) allows any cartridge up to 8mm calibre that meets range limits. The norm there these days are 'sevens' - .284 Win, the Shehane version of the same, 7mm Rem SAUM, and most common in high level competition in the UK a modified version of the 7mm WSM based on 270 or .300 WSM cases. .300 SAUM and WSM see some use at national level too. At club level, you might see anything from 6mm wildcats and the 6mm BR Norma up to WSMs and the 338 Lapua Magnum where club and range rules allow it. 6.5X47 and now the 6.5 Creedmoor are very popular often in dual-purpose sporting / range set-ups.

Gallery Rifle obviously uses revolver cartridges as chambered in common leverguns; McQueens (sniper) and Tactical / CSR / Practical use anything that feeds reliably from a magazine, has light recoil, and bucks the wind, so 223 up to the smaller 6.5s but also sevens and 308. CISM/ISSF (a 3-position 300-metre discipline) competitors almost invariably use 6mm BR Norma. Historic Rifle shooters' eligibility is based on rifle classification and historic period and must use the original cartridge - so 303, 6.5X55, 7.92X57, 7.5X55, .30-06, 7X57, 7.62X54R .. or whatever - and so on, and so forth.

So, in summary, there is no single cartridge or even group of cartridges, and it depends on the discipline's regulations in some cases, club rules, range conditions, and users' preferences according to situation.

What one can say is that for people who want a day's prone rifle shooting on their local military or private range arranged by their clubs, 308 Win is nothing like as universally used as it was 20 or even 10 years ago, especially if there are opportunities to shoot beyond 600 yards. The sixes, 6.5s, and sevens walk all over the 308 in ballistic terms at long ranges. Buy a £1,500 Ruger Precision Rifle or equivalent in 6.5 Creedmoor and it will reliably hit the 'black' at 1,000 yards in out of the box form with a half-decent scope fitted, is easy to shoot with light recoil, and is less wind affected than 308.
 
Coo - fountain of knowledge!

I want a target rifle for fun at the ranges, but I wouldn't mind competing now and again. And I don't want to be ruled out because of the rifle's calibre. I like small groups and practice makes perfect so a target rifle is the way to go. Seems a shame to use a sporting set up on long range shots, especially when it is 'many rounds'. Can be done but there's better ways and why not have another?

First choice would be a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. My only concern is that even though the calibre is very popular in the US, the 6.5 may become obsolete here in the UK if it doesn't get into the competitions. And if I get bored with it, don't like it or just fancy a change, it may be difficult to move on.

But it sounds like it could be just the job, eh? Thanks all.

P123
 
There is, or there are full bore competitions at the Commonwealth Games. At the Glasgow Games, the ranges at Barry Buddon were utilised. The challenge often is that there is not a full bore range handy for the Games venue and the shooters end up being off on their own.
But, be assured, full bore there is.
As an aside, quite a number of the smaller nations have full bore shooters. It’s important to them.
 
First choice would be a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. My only concern is that even though the calibre is very popular in the US, the 6.5 may become obsolete here in the UK if it doesn't get into the competitions. And if I get bored with it, don't like it or just fancy a change, it may be difficult to move on.

But it sounds like it could be just the job, eh? Thanks all.

P123

Don't worry about that. With the way that the 6.5 Creedmoor has taken off, it won't become obsolete in a long time. 260 Rem and 6.5X47L maybe, but with yet more brass and ammunition manufacturers having adopted it, nearly double figures now, and more and more rifle manufacturers offering it too, its life will see current buyers shoot their barrels out (or three) long before this happens. That's not to say something better won't be along in due course.
 
There is, or there are full bore competitions at the Commonwealth Games. At the Glasgow Games, the ranges at Barry Buddon were utilised. The challenge often is that there is not a full bore range handy for the Games venue and the shooters end up being off on their own.
But, be assured, full bore there is.
As an aside, quite a number of the smaller nations have full bore shooters. It’s important to them.

I stand corrected - thanks for the update.
 
Coo - fountain of knowledge!

I want a target rifle for fun at the ranges, but I wouldn't mind competing now and again. And I don't want to be ruled out because of the rifle's calibre. I like small groups and practice makes perfect so a target rifle is the way to go. Seems a shame to use a sporting set up on long range shots, especially when it is 'many rounds'. Can be done but there's better ways and why not have another?

First choice would be a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. My only concern is that even though the calibre is very popular in the US, the 6.5 may become obsolete here in the UK if it doesn't get into the competitions. And if I get bored with it, don't like it or just fancy a change, it may be difficult to move on.

But it sounds like it could be just the job, eh? Thanks all.

P123


It would pay to do a little homework before splashing out too much on a rifle based on (presumably?) some on line reviews. Bear in mind that the HMR, as nice a rifle as it is uses a 22 inch barrel and that won't be quite long enough to get the most from the 6.5CM which seems to perform optimally with 24 to 27 inch barrels for 1000 yds + ranges. If it's a range only 6.5, then a Tikka Tac A1, Ruger Precision (both 24 inch barrels) or a Sabatti STR (26") are probably a better bet or on a tighter budget, the Sako A7 Roughtech Range (again, 26") or Tikka T3 CTR.

Don't rule out .308 if it's fun and the odd comp. It's relatively cheap to load for and barrels if not pushed too hard will last a good while. It will shoot perfectly fine to 1000 yards with high BC bullets like the 175gr Tipped Match King from Sierra but just won't be as competitive as the 6mm BR, 6.5s (any of them) or 7mm calibres which are all leading the way for longer range shooting.

Also worth bearing in mind that most (but not all) people who regularly target shoot also eventually load for themselves and loading teaches you a lot about ballistics and allows you to fine tune loads to your rifle giving better precision and consistency than most factory ammunition could provide. It is also cheaper to do this if you shoot a lot. There is more chance of mice landing on the moon as there is of 6.5 CM becoming obsolete any time soon, and it, along with 308 will be made I suspect for many years to come.
 
Mainly what Laurie said but there is a lot of cheap 223/5.56 around and very popular a BSRC for the deer. I have 308 and 260, however the 260 seems more reliable past 300 metres.
 
Fair point about the moon landings.

I reload as it is so moving onto 6.5 creedmoor won't really be an issue.

The Tikka is a little too military for me. The Civilian Service Rifle has never appealed. I'm ex-Army and played with SLR's so paintballing and wearing camo to Tesco's doesn't do it for me.

The Sabatti and the Ruger sorta fall into the same category. I get the chassis design and the adjustable elements but...

Sako A7? Won't that be expensive for what I'm after? But the Tikka T3 CTR... now that does look peachy. Reminds me of a Steyr SSG. Might have a look at one of those.

Thanks all
P123
 
As far as I'm aware neither the Olympics nor Commonwealth games have incorporated any centrefire rifle shooting disciplines for a long time, the shooting sports being pistol (with attempts to have firearms versions of those removed) and longarms restricted to .22LR and air weapons plus shotguns in various clay shooting disciplines, the rimfire maybe only in the Winter Olympics for the skiing / shooting Biathlon.

What one can say is that for people who want a day's prone rifle shooting on their local military or private range arranged by their clubs, 308 Win is nothing like as universally used as it was 20 or even 10 years ago, especially if there are opportunities to shoot beyond 600 yards. The sixes, 6.5s, and sevens walk all over the 308 in ballistic terms at long ranges. Buy a £1,500 Ruger Precision Rifle or equivalent in 6.5 Creedmoor and it will reliably hit the 'black' at 1,000 yards in out of the box form with a half-decent scope fitted, is easy to shoot with light recoil, and is less wind affected than 308.

well the Commonwealth Shooting Federation Championships are next month in Brisbane as the warm up for wthe Commonwealth Games in April 2018, so perhaps more knowledge needs to be spread about Fullbore Rifle events.

If the OP wants to do compete internationally (in TR), join the very long queue. Having Shot at international level let me tell you only a few people, 2 in pairs from each nation, ever get picked for the the CWG. The small Commonwealth nations often send fullbore shooters as they can compete fairly evenly with the larger countries, and the rules are not overly technical (and therefore expensive) unlike some other events.

Olympics are based on qualifying, having national quota places etc and are air/22lr events. The Long Range World Championships (TR/Palma) are in NZ in 2019.

if one requires something easier, but where you are prepared to throw large amounts of money at it, try F-Class, where as Laurie states some calibres in fairly mediocre equipment will outshoot other calibres including 308 unless in a classification of FTR where youre restricted to TR calibres but not TR bulletwights. If however you wish to really improve your shooting, and of course be in contact with the actual rifle when you ligtly touch the hair trigger, then increasingly, F Class wont be for you. Match Rifle (1000,1100,1200 yds, scoped rifles) are 308win only and with heavy projectiles.

Civilian Service Rifle is an option, as is Classic shooting. Why not phone the NRA and enquire?

TR is the largest NRA discipline, and in order to shoot in the Imperial meeting in TR events (the UK National meeting), you will need to have a 308win as unfortunately ammo is issued to competitors, therefore 308 is easily the most popular calibre at Bisley. 223 is used in Scotland and in the North of England quite a bit (and in Canada) but only in competitions allowing handloads. If you wish to do 300m ISSF, you will be better off with a superb 6mmBR or XC but you wont get much change out of £4500 for a rifle that meets the rules.

AS for the Games going forward, with only one bid to replace the corrupt South African organisation, and the Games being stripped in 2022, some lobbying will be required for fullbore rifle to be an event, or indeed ANY shooting as the bid city is controlled by Corbynistas.
 
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"If however you wish to really improve your shooting, and of course be in contact with the actual rifle when you ligtly touch the hair trigger, then increasingly, F Class wont be for you."

OUCH!

K
 
If it's a range only 6.5, then a Tikka Tac A1, Ruger Precision (both 24 inch barrels) or a Sabatti STR (26") are probably a better bet or on a tighter budget, the Sako A7 Roughtech Range (again, 26") or Tikka T3 CTR.

If, like me, you prefer to extract maximum value on proven products that don't necessarily have the 'flash' factor, then take a look at the Howa Varmint 6.5 Creedmoor. Proper heavy contour 24" barrel, proper integrated recoil lug, three position safety. Drop it into a bedded Boyds stock of your choice, lap the bolt lugs, fit a quality suppressor e.g. DPT, either adjust or replace the trigger depending on your preference (mine is adjust until you've isolated the trigger as a problem), fit a decent tactical scope on a 20MOA two piece rail... and prepare to be amazed! Develop a load based on the objective of launching a 140-145gr pill at ~2700fps, using H4350, job done. All of the above will come in less than the cost of the off the shelf Tikka CTR (bar scope obviously).

Now, this is of course just what I'm doing, but I'm copying my neighbour who built one of these recently and put a Vortex PST FFP 6-24x50 on top. I used his rifle properly for the first time last week in a red spiker cull, and was blown away how easy to shoot (recoil), accurate and deadly it was. I understand you're after a target rifle, well this fits that bill spot on, cos we set ourselves up properly at 600 yds for the ridge-to-ridge shoot we were planning and checked out drops and drift, and shooting off a tripod the rifle peeled off 5 shot strings a little under half-MOA without even trying. It's been run in properly, already got over 300 rounds down the tube, and man can it shoot. Well worth considering. I can't wait for my stock to arrive so I can start the build in earnest. Already got the suppressor and bases fitted.
 
When I said 'competition', I wasn't talking about the Olympics!

I am a member of a certain club at Bisley, who mainly use 22 and 556. And I'm looking at being involved in their competitions, which in themselves are evolving. I may wish to compete in competitions that exist between clubs - across the way - and I only want one rifle, in one calibre. And I want to shoot a larger calibre than 5.56.

The reason I'm asking is because a .308 is currently the standardised, international, full-bore, competition round and this might change. So i'm wondering what it is going to change to. Hope that clears it up.

Otherwise, it looks like i'll be staying with 6.5CM for target shooting.

P123
 
Laurie gave a great answer, to your question and fifty more.

I think you are overthinking things, looking too far ahead, sort of like someone trying to decide which rod and reel will handle all the fishing he might do someday.

A lot of newer shooters fall into this trap, thinking about shooting at 1,000 yards, when they are not even shooting beyond 200 yards. By the time they work up their skills to shoot at 600 yards, they will have worn out some barrels, traded rifles, and restocked one or more. Nothing has changed much since I shot my first 1,000 yard match with a Model 70 single shot .30-06 wearing iron sights and 30-inch barrel, in that you need a specialized rifle for that, with longer barrel for bullets and powders.

A Tikka CTR in .308 o 6.5 Creedmoor is hard to beat for price and performance out of the box, or the longer and heavier varmint rifle. But the CTR is light enough to use for stalking deer, all day on your feet. Why not start out with a .308 in whatever rifle, and shoot less expensively, in a wider variety of matches, as you are trying out various courses of fire?

The Scandinavians and Germans shoot some very practical courses of fire, and use Steyr, Sauer SSG 3000, etc.

dodgyknees' suggestion of a Howa 1500 is good, too. Look at their offerings in the online catalog. Over here, you can buy all kinds of variations of rifles, barreled actions and actions. Brownells and Midway sell a lot of them. You could drop a barrelled action into a nice GRS stock, change the trigger at some point to what suits you, and you are all into a semi-custom target rifle for reasonable money. Easy to rebarrel , lots of Remington 700 bases, etc fit it. Full new bottom metal and 10-rd magazine units are reasonable.

Nice thing about a Tikka, Howa, Begara, Sauer, Steyr or Remington is you can use the lighter rifle for hunting, too, or build up target rifle on the same action, for familiarity and commonality.

As with fishing, the spectrum is too broad for one rifle to do it all, even playing around. You will end up building another, on a Remington 40X or some UK specialized action, if you go down one of those trails, like FTR or F-Open.
 
Guys, respectfully...

Can I ask you to read the OP please? We've gone off on a tangent here. Imagine I'm after a target rifle and the issue is the standardisation of calibre for competitions. If you can't imagine, just pretend. They're similar.

RUAG lost the supply of Bisley ammo to GGG, the commonwealth, the olympics etc. I'm wondering what the future holds and value your opinion.

It's not a stalking rifle i'm after and although i'm new on here, I got my DSC1 back in 2003. I've got that covered.

Back on track.

P123
 
Well 308 won't 'die' anytime soon, and it'll likely remain the cartridge for the TR / MR / Palma / FTR disciplines as long as they are in existence ... with one possible proviso only. That is if NATO adopts a different set of cartridges in a different calibre, that may cause a rethink just as the move from the 19th century cartridges to 7.62 in the late 1950s did. Even there with the weakening of target shooting to military connections outside of the USA anyway, that might not be enough to cause changes.

I've been a competitive shooter for over 50 years and the changes over that time are enormous, primarily in an explosion in the number of disciplines. Outside of Bisley and a relatively small number of large competitions, 'Target Rifle' is dying. Regional clubs that produced 20 plus competitors for in-house matches back in the 1980s are lucky to get a half dozen these days, and regional 'Open' comps have nearly died. The YRA's twice annual Spring and Autumn open TR meetings at MoD Strensall use four of five lanes these days, and one of those is for F-Class. In the 80s, even 90s, two adjacent ranges had to be booked to accommodate a TR-only field.

PSSA at Diggle which used to have a large TR shooting complement, has maybe 10 now of whom half a dozen are regulars and that's despite TR shooting alongside F-Class on a two-weekly basis for a good local championship. The many northern inter-club TR or Palma challenge matches between PSSA, Huddersfield RC, and Altcar no longer exist. At Diggle, F-Class has ~100 names there now in its championship listing with frequent attendances by non-PSSA visitors who want to try it at longer ranges (800-1,000). FTR (mostly 308, a handful of 223s) used to be 50% plus of the field, F-Open usually now sees the larger number with various sixes, 6.5X47L, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-08, 284 Win / Shehane, 6.5-284, 7mm SAUM / WSM, 338 Lap Magnum, and even a .300 RUM in regular use. McQueens at Diggle sees entries of 30-45 and hardly any will shoot 308, more 6.5s these days than the rest put together. Tactical comps are heavily attended, likewise levergun, and even Benchrest at 600 and 1,000 yards will see far more people these days than TR. Although with a factory rifle class, BR actually gets a few 308 Remington PSSs and Savage 12s, even if the winners mostly shoot 6.5X55s.

If one takes the regular bookings of Bisley lanes, and the many MoD ranges around the country for non-competitive shooting days or maybe counting as a club league round for some, 20, 25 years ago it was 90% plus 308, historic military aside which has always had a good following. So, it was a mixture of Gen 1 TR rifles in iron sights, state of the art TR rifles (iron sights) and a variety of sporters / police rifles such as Remington VS / VLS / PSS, Steyr SSGs, Tikka M55 Supersports, and suchlike, all scoped and 80 or 90% 308 Win calibre, the remainder mostly 6.5X55 and 223.

Today, you'll see a lot more custom scoped rifles built by Dolphin Guns, Neil McKillop, Norman Clark, Osprey Rifles and others, all scoped, and unless the owner wants to enter FTR matches virtually none in 308. Right now, 6.5X47 Lapua is most likely the single largest choice, but there are probably anything up to 30 different cartridges in use in four or five calibres. Then there are the more accurate factory heavy-barrel rifles from a range of manufacturers which stuck longer to 308 and 6.5X55 but are increasingly using other cartridges these days. The Ruger Precision Rifle, Sabattis and suchlike initially sold more examples in 308 than anything else, but today are more likely to be ordered in 6.5 Creedmoor.

So, to summarise, unless one is going to participate in an ICFRA discipline that specifies 223 and 308 cartridges only, there is simply no 'standard' out there anymore. factors that cause people to veer one way or another are cost (secondhand 308s are increasingly good value as the cartridge's popularity wanes); barrel life (plus for 308); precision (308 is still very good with handloads); recoil (depending on the individual's tolerance plus whether the discipline needs rapid snapshots where low recoil is a plus; external ballistics allied to the distances people want / expect to shoot over - which have become VERY much longer in the last 10 years; whether cheap factory ammo is available or handloading is going to be used for 100% of rounds through the rifle; and not least plain good old fashion. There is no definitive answer, and the advice given is often inconsistent, sometimes downright wrong, sometimes very good.
 
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