Target shooting in a potential lead free world are you rethinking your future plans

[Zetter]

Hi All

Looking at the current proposals for the lead ban it looks like it could be getting even more expensive going forward if you want to target shoot.

I have been watching the threads with interest debating the way forward and the pros and cons but I wondered what peoples view were who shoot long range target or shoot club.

I am a club member and also shoot live quarry (Though I didn't think this was going to be the case this appears to be one bit of my hobby that's going to be largely unaffected) and I think this is going to like many seriously affect my future shooting plans/ rifle purchases for club use.

I haven't yet had chance to ask my club as to which way they are planning to jump as this is A) a proposal and B) its fairly new out as a discussion. But I was looking at a big purchase to replace a gun I just sold and am now (even though the variation is in) seriously rethinking this in light of this proposal as it would depend on if my club goes copper or thinks they can manage the club with a derogation due to possible cost of copper ammunition for the gun I was looking at if they don't get a derogating.
Also I would guess for long range, PRS, PRS rimfire this is going to force people to go copper only at a seriously increased cost per round as I cant see how the areas these are shot over will get a derogation unless they are military ranges (which would I guess get an automatic one) due to the practical impossibility of capturing lead at the targets.

I know a mate was also keen to get into PSG at our club but again if they dont go down the derogation route I would think this as well would be a big risk until the dust settles and everyone knows which way they are going to go.

A bit rambley I know but I would be interested to know if anyone else is in the same position i.e. are you rethinking future and imminent purchases in light of the proposed plan for lead ammunition.

 

[Heym SR20]

Have a look at what the likes of Peregrine Bullets are doing with their long range monolithics Rangemaster and VLR5 bullets.

Cost wise these are shown on Peregrine’s own website at 50 to 60% of the cost of their comparable hunting bullets.

To date though all the focus in the UK has been on hunting ammunition and there are now many options on the market.

With target ammunition, many ranges have not been happy with monolithics. There has now been work on understanding the ricochet risk and many ranges are starting to allow monolithic bullets.

I would as market demand rises options will increase and costs will come down.

Military is already driving the technology. There have been several non lead 5.56 options for a good while. Some of steel cored, some solid copper, some frangible. Nammo group - which also has Lapua etc.

Many military training areas, especially in Europe now insist on lead free ammunition. In the US lead free ammo is used in indoor training environments by many agencies.

5.56 mm x 45 Frangible Non Toxic 4 Semi-Jacketed - Nammo

www.nammo.com

Cost of ammunition has always been a factor for full bore target shooting. Sadly long gone are the days of cheap military surplus ammo. Most target ammo will be newly manufactured. FMJ target ammo is about £1 a bang these days depending on brand for 223. Bigger calibres are more, and a days target shooting does cost money.

I would expect that if there is a complete ban on lead ammunition for all forms of rifle shooting, given the volume of ammunition used (which far exceeds the hunting market) we will start seeing some of the mass produced military type ammo coming into the target shooting market.

But with the big caveat of the Ukraine and now Middle East situation. A couple of minutes of GPMG use will likely use more ammo than most on SD shoot in a number of years.

I do shoot targets, and am a member of Home Office Approved Club. There is a proposed exemption for where there is full control and capture of the bullets. Ie most gallery ranges.

But having read the draft proposals there is definitely a sense from the authors that shooters cannot be trusted and that lead ammo intended for target use will find its way into the field.

 

[trickie]

I’ve not seem a link for these proposal, our club has also not mentioned them. I’ll ask on Friday club night.
we shoot at Mil ranges and Bisley (they follow the military guidance so what happen on the military ranges will be echoed at Bisley). Currently I’m sitting on north of 1k in 6.5 Creedmoor and about 800 223 bullets. These are my 2 main rifles. TBO I don’t expect the military to change for outdoor ranges and it would be easy to amend FAC’s to reflect the change of and when it happens for stalking/varminting. The shooting community are on the whole law abiding citizens. I would not expect anyone to shoot illegal ammunition when the option of being caught would lead to an end of shooting for them.
Should and component of my ammunition be made illegal, I will be compensated for each and every illegal item.
I’m not currently worried in any way.

 

[Liveonce]

How can they ban lead for private, club target shooting use but allow the military and police to carry on using it when all use the same ranges, like Hythe and Lydd. Can the fauna tell the difference between who shot the bullet?

 

[Stevie/P]

How can they ban lead for private, club target shooting use but allow the military and police to carry on using it when all use the same ranges, like Hythe and Lydd. Can the fauna tell the difference between who shot the bullet?

It’s not about banning lead it’s about restricting shooting and gun ownership in private hands take off the blinkers.

 

[paul o']

There is a range in Wales and its on land that is listed as Trip SSI and was a lead mine ? how can you police a lead mine for lead contamination ??

 

[Zetter]

Trouble is there is not a lot of detail on what you have to do to get a derogation for lead target shooting is it going to be as simple on gallery range to sieve the sand traps to recover the lead as most ranges do and you are good or is it going to be more in depth. Its certainly going to be a bit of a death knell for practical shotgun I would think.
For long range stuff as Heym 20 said its mostly bigger bore stuff so copper is an option although will the cost just go up to participate as the majority of ammunition is US manufactured and they are not being pushed this way yet so the volume wont be there.

I was looking at a 9mm for a gallery fun gun next variation but to be fair I will likely be thinking again until it becomes clear how these proposals will impact at the club level.

 

[Heym SR20]

Trouble is there is not a lot of detail on what you have to do to get a derogation for lead target shooting is it going to be as simple on gallery range to sieve the sand traps to recover the lead as most ranges do and you are good or is it going to be more in depth. Its certainly going to be a bit of a death knell for practical shotgun I would think.
For long range stuff as Heym 20 said its mostly bigger bore stuff so copper is an option although will the cost just go up to participate as the majority of ammunition is US manufactured and they are not being pushed this way yet so the volume wont be there.

I was looking at a 9mm for a gallery fun gun next variation but to be fair I will likely be thinking again until it becomes clear how these proposals will impact at the club level.

If you google 9mm non toxic ammo you will see plenty of options are available from many different manufacturers. Mostly these are US or European manufacture so not a clue whether available in the UK.

In the US a big driver to non toxic use is requirements on indoor Police ranges for lead free ammo.

Just found this paper for new jersey police listing all the options available together with costs.

https://www.nj.gov/lps/dcj/pdfs/non_toxammo2.pdf

 

[Dunwaters]

I think some of you are being overly optimistic about the use of lead on ranges and clay grounds.
Post ban you are going to see very few ranges authorised for continued lead use because there will be stringent rules governing containment and recovery and most grounds will not be able to meet the required environmental standards.
Exceptions will be the few and far between.

 

[One on top of two]

this

And dont foret get thats if the local councils / planning depts pass any adaptions

Also this will all come at considerable cost to range owners …. And so expect range fees / memberships to go through the roof which will then raise the question is it worth the extra investment if numbers drop off .

 

[tim@tcs]

this

And dont foret get thats if the local councils / planning depts pass any adaptions

Also this will all come at considerable cost to range owners …. And so expect range fees / memberships to go through the roof which will then raise the question is it worth the extra investment if numbers drop off .

Most clay ranges are only open every other Sunday and are exempt planning rules regarding clay shooting. There are quite a few open seven days a week and they will no doubt have compliance or exemption planned already

 

[One on top of two]

Most clay ranges are only open every other Sunday and are exempt planning rules regarding clay shooting. There are quite a few open seven days a week and they will no doubt have compliance or exemption planned already

Watch this space . Im not referring to clay grounds .

 

[Liveonce]

Most clay ranges are only open every other Sunday and are exempt planning rules regarding clay shooting. There are quite a few open seven days a week and they will no doubt have compliance or exemption planned already

The local council environmental side enforce noise pollution issues regarding ranges and clay grounds will they be empowered to act regarding lead pollution after any ban ? I doubt the HSE has resources to do so, may be they will act on behalf of the HSE, Just as the police act on behalf of the HSE for explosive storage below 2000 Kg.

The devil will be in the detail, yet I expect to even be written.

 

[Zetter]

If you google 9mm non toxic ammo you will see plenty of options are available from many different manufacturers. Mostly these are US or European manufacture so not a clue whether available in the UK.

In the US a big driver to non toxic use is requirements on indoor Police ranges for lead free ammo.

Just found this paper for new jersey police listing all the options available together with costs.

https://www.nj.gov/lps/dcj/pdfs/non_toxammo2.pdf

Trouble is I have started investigating this UK wise and currently there is one supplier I could find of non toxic 9mm and this would mean reloading for it as it was just the projectiles (which I can do). Cost per 50 £72 before you have got the primers and powder. Compared to current 9mm cost of about £20 for 50 its not really sustainable as a range rifle unless a lot more non toxic get imported. Really I would be better off going back to something more mainstream like .308 or .223 as at least the projectiles are available at reasonable cost.

 

[kennyc]

I shoot in Switzerland a few times a year, most (if not all) of the local rifle ranges have, or are in the process of installing bullet traps to reduce lead pollution, seems to me it would be a better option than a total ban on lead for target shooting ?
we also go through a fair amount of 9mm (in the thousands a week as a group) so cost is always going to be an issue .

 

[Heym SR20]

Trouble is I have started investigating this UK wise and currently there is one supplier I could find of non toxic 9mm and this would mean reloading for it as it was just the projectiles (which I can do). Cost per 50 £72 before you have got the primers and powder. Compared to current 9mm cost of about £20 for 50 its not really sustainable as a range rifle unless a lot more non toxic get imported. Really I would be better off going back to something more mainstream like .308 or .223 as at least the projectiles are available at reasonable cost.

Yup, therein lies the challenge. UK importers will need to get on the case. I suppose if their current product lines are deemed illegal they will have no option but to switch product lines. But………….

If you read the police report I linked to, in US additional cost on fully non lead ammo was $20 to $30 per 1,000 rounds of ammo. But again I expect there may be a high level of **** take initially.

I wouldn’t get overly concerned. Five years ago there was virtually no non toxic rifle ammo or bullets in the UK. I tried to buy some to take to Germany - bought some over there.

Now non lead rifle ammo for deer stalking is widely available. Ditto steel shot in game cartridges. And its increasing all the time. I suspect the same with all the other cartridges used. The likes of 9x19 in gallery rifles is in high demand, ditto 38 Special in lever actions.

There has to date been no pressure for lead free on target shooting and thus no need to change, hence no need to for the supply chain to do anything about it.

But agree 223 is very mainstream. In faster twists it is very capable out to silly distances. Indeed my own with 1 in 12” twist shoots very well with lighter bullets out to about 575m.

Bullets are cheaper and it uses half the powder per bang of a bigger 6.5 or 308.

However it is not cheaper to run. I just end shooting a lot more

 

[Liveonce]

i do like an optimist

lme copper today four times the price of lead, so copper bullets will always be more expensive then lead, fill them with tin or bismuth you say prices in $ bismuth is also very expensive and a rare earth metal.

We just all must get used to shooting no longer being a cheap hobby, if it ever was

 

[trickie]

I’ve had 2 conversations with RFD’s in the last 3 days, both think that this will never become a blanket ban.
The worst option viewed was:
lead projectile: a qty of ammunition on you fac (as normal currently). Also qty’s of leaded components, possibly restricted to the total amount of rounds,
Meaning you have 500 rounds, shoot 300, buy 300 bullets to take you back too 500. No restrictions on primers/powder/cases.
A logistical nightmare

 

[KimE]

i do like an optimist

lme copper today four times the price of lead, so copper bullets will always be more expensive then lead, fill them with tin or bismuth you say prices in $ bismuth is also very expensive and a rare earth metal.

We just all must get used to shooting no longer being a cheap hobby, if it ever was

Bismuth are mined in the same mines as lead so the price will go up if the demand of lead go down.