I use a 6mm 100 grain Prohunter for all species up to and including Fallow, 6.5mm 130 grain Accubond for Sika and Red Stags. I have a 7mm which shoots a 160 grain bullet but it doesn't make Reds any more dead than the 6.5mm which has proven to be just as effective. The 6mm has proven to be too little gun on Red and Sika Stags but it is very good on the Hinds.
That old thread 'is a .243 enough?'
- Thread starter tonyt
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Scotty1980
Well-Known Member
Very thought provoking stuff, especially the post by dodgyknees.
As a newbie i'm just sucking this stuff up...keep it coming chaps.
As a newbie i'm just sucking this stuff up...keep it coming chaps.
flytie
Well-Known Member
A great friend of mine spent the first 19 years of being a stalker on a West Coast estate with a .243 Win, he experimented with other calibres as he became head stalker but has ended up now going back to a .243. They are more than effective if the correct bullet is used. His favourite bullet was a 105gr round nose which he said killed really well, unfortunately this bullet is no longer available. Hornady make a 100gr round nose but I have yet to use them
I've found that flat based bullets work well in my .243, better than boat tails. It is a Sako 75 III in .243 and will put anything from 76gr V-Max to 105gr Geco's to the same point of aim. What I can say is that 90gr Sako Gameheads kill roe and muntjac cleanly, as do 95gr Nosler Partitions.
As dodgyknees has so wisely said, bullet placement is all. I have seen a foreign gentleman use a .300 win-mag on red stags and they ran and ran, his bullet placement was dreadful. Use the .243 Partition through the shoulder and everything dies.
Simon
I've found that flat based bullets work well in my .243, better than boat tails. It is a Sako 75 III in .243 and will put anything from 76gr V-Max to 105gr Geco's to the same point of aim. What I can say is that 90gr Sako Gameheads kill roe and muntjac cleanly, as do 95gr Nosler Partitions.
As dodgyknees has so wisely said, bullet placement is all. I have seen a foreign gentleman use a .300 win-mag on red stags and they ran and ran, his bullet placement was dreadful. Use the .243 Partition through the shoulder and everything dies.
Simon
I suspect a lot of the popularity of the .243 on highland estates is to do with its relatively low recoil. A stalking guest who shoots very little during the year will get on much better with the low recoil of the .243 compared to say a .270 or .308 and will therefore shoot more accurately. Also it is much easier to follow up on the open mountain where the shot hasn’t been immediately fatal than to see the rear end of your deer disappearing into the forest.
TOMMO.B
Well-Known Member
That is pants. Its not toy calibre. BIG stags shot dead with one shot. As has been stated, as with every shot its where you place it.
The same could be done with a .22 and has been done in the past. Most folk are using mods so there is little recoil.
Going to say this and leave it, the size of a red stag in central Scotland is in now way comparable with the size of the stags in the home counties of England or the continent or ever our friends in Australasia. Comparing what is effective against them is not a just comparison.
What is effective of a 60kg Hind is unlikely to be as effective on a 140kg Hind.
Can't compare apple and bananas.
Andy7mm
[h=1][/h]
What is effective of a 60kg Hind is unlikely to be as effective on a 140kg Hind.
Can't compare apple and bananas.
Andy7mm
[h=1][/h]
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
I was a bit surprised at the original 243 thread , aka The thread that wouldn't die , in that there was any doubt about the 243/ 6mm capabilities . I've used them and like them , as do a number of people I know . Not that I'd recommend it , but I've seen a few Moose and Elk taken with heavier bullet ( partitions ) loads in 243's . There are obviously better choices , but in the hands of someone who knew what they're doing , the 243 did it .
I've used the 243 to take a few Mule Deer and White-Tail bucks , some well over the 250 pound mark . They went down quickly and humanely . The 243 isn't my usual carry rifle , but that's not a reflection on the caliber , it's the fact that there are large carnivores where I hunt and for larger game like Moose and Elk , there are calibers that I have more confidence in to deal with more demanding or even dangerous situations . If you feel the need for something heavier , that's fine , but the 243/6mm cartridges are very capable rounds . YMMV .
AB
I've used the 243 to take a few Mule Deer and White-Tail bucks , some well over the 250 pound mark . They went down quickly and humanely . The 243 isn't my usual carry rifle , but that's not a reflection on the caliber , it's the fact that there are large carnivores where I hunt and for larger game like Moose and Elk , there are calibers that I have more confidence in to deal with more demanding or even dangerous situations . If you feel the need for something heavier , that's fine , but the 243/6mm cartridges are very capable rounds . YMMV .
AB
tusker
Well-Known Member
+1 I use this on fox to fallow
Tusker
Yes, and... no? Some comparison of red deer sizes from around the world. According to “reliable sources”.
Dept Conservation (NZ - public land):
Males have a shoulder height of 1100-1300 mm and weigh 95-215 kg with females smaller at 950-1050 mm shoulder height and weighing 85-110kg.
High Peak (NZ - private land)
The average shoulder height of a male is 1100-1300mm and they roughly weigh between 180-250kg. Female Red Deer, called hinds, are smaller at 950-1050mm shoulder height and weigh approximately 85-140kg.
British Deer Society
The red deer is the largest land-mammal in the UK with a males (stags) standing 107-137cm at the shoulder and weighing 90-190kg. Adult females (hinds) reach a height of 107-122cm at the shoulder and weigh 63-120kg. Deer on the open hill in Scotland are smaller than those in lowland English woodland.
Scottish Wildlife Trust
Length: 1.7-2.6m Height: 1.2m at the shoulder Weight: 100-340kg Average lifespan: 16-18 years.
Game Management Authority (Aus)
They are a medium to large-sized deer. Mature stags will stand around 120cm at the shoulder and weigh approximately 160kg. Hinds are approximately two-thirds the size of the male.
Scottish National Trust
The stags (males) measure up to 120cm at the shoulder and weigh anything from 60–130kg. The hinds (females) are smaller and lighter.
Well, from the above you can see that the Scottish Wildlife Trust has been feeding its deer steroids cos they’ve got stags almost double the size of the British Deer Society, who reckon the Scots are smaller than the English. Or maybe the British Deer Society has been hanging out with the Scottish National Trust? Or perhaps someone's been sneaking those Wapiti genes into the red hinds again... Reckon there’s a typo there? A 340kg stag would be a tad on the large side for the Scottish subspecies... In fact it would be an elk!
Seriously, I’ve always been under the impression that the Scottish deer are smaller but Andy7mm seems to be suggesting that they are a lot bigger, or am I misreading this?
The comment “What is effective of a 60kg Hind is unlikely to be as effective on a 140kg Hind”, well in my experience just isn’t true, when using the front line of leg point of impact. A 140kg hind? Well that’s a super sized hind all right. I am 100% confident that if I shot a good sized hind just in front of the line of the foreleg as discussed, she is going to go down like a sack of spuds in just the same way as the yearling standing next to her. Doesn’t matter what cartridge I was using.
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Spot on there.
85 grain Sierra GK and 37 grains of H4895 has been the sweet spot for most of the 243s I’ve had.
yet to try it in my (New to me) 1885.
Ken.
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
340 kg Red Deer ! I've seen a lot of Elk that don't weigh that much ............ Irish Elk perhaps ? lol
AB
AB
Dodgy knees you are misreading, what I was trying to say is that experience on Scottish red deer (small hinds, a good Scottish hind is about 45kg clean so 65ish kg live) is not really comparable to shooting some of the larger hinds found in in other areas and vise versa. I agree that a bullet placed in the correct place will do the job but reaction and the post shot movement of the deer is likely to be very different, historically more deer will have been shot with a 22H than any other caliber and they would be just as dead.
140kg was ripped from wiki I assumed it would be a reasonable figure, it is stated in you NZ private land blurb, and comparison are best done with the two extremes.
as far as the 340kg stag, some of those big Euro stag must be getting there.
Andy7mm
140kg was ripped from wiki I assumed it would be a reasonable figure, it is stated in you NZ private land blurb, and comparison are best done with the two extremes.
as far as the 340kg stag, some of those big Euro stag must be getting there.
Andy7mm
Between us we shot 6 red stags on the hill this year. We weigh them off the hill before lardering, so gralloched but red offal in and head and legs on. The heaviest was 220Lb (100kg) which was an estate record (estate not been going for that long!) and the lightest was 160Lb (72kg). Not sure how that relates to live weights, but probably add 15kg for the gralloch. So live weights of 87kg to 115kg. We leave the good ones, just shooting the rubbish, so there are beasts about that are about 20% bigger than the largest we shot - max 140 kg.
Now I'm sure they can get to almost double that in Devon/Norfolk, but 340kg? I shot a very big bull moose in Lapland a few years back which lardered (head and legs off) at 255kg. Can't believe a Red Stag can get that big unless it has a big dose of Wapati in it.
Now I'm sure they can get to almost double that in Devon/Norfolk, but 340kg? I shot a very big bull moose in Lapland a few years back which lardered (head and legs off) at 255kg. Can't believe a Red Stag can get that big unless it has a big dose of Wapati in it.
Short answer is its a mistake. Has to be. Either its a typo on the weight, or they are referencing wapiti / red hybrids, under the heading red deer. The interbreeding issue confuses matters a lot - just look at the problems they have in Fjordland with trying to determine what belongs under wapiti regulations, and what is classed as a red deer, it can be very subjective on the periphery of their range. Anyway, I know bugger all about the reintroduction of pure elk to Scotland, or which sub-species (there are lots), only that there’s been a few by private land owners. I have no idea how many wapiti/red hybrids you have.
I just remember for years my Grandpa bemoaning how small and poxy the deer in Scotland were. (He’d spent many years pre- and post-war in Canada... his perspective on pretty much everything was warped from years working in the wilderness. He went back in his late 70s after Grandma died and married again and carried on breeding, commendable effort, thats why I have part indigenous rellies in that part of the world. Bloody good bunch they are too.) Anyway, thread wandering... my new stock has arrived... off to collect for some fun rifle building over the weekend
I just remember for years my Grandpa bemoaning how small and poxy the deer in Scotland were. (He’d spent many years pre- and post-war in Canada... his perspective on pretty much everything was warped from years working in the wilderness. He went back in his late 70s after Grandma died and married again and carried on breeding, commendable effort, thats why I have part indigenous rellies in that part of the world. Bloody good bunch they are too.) Anyway, thread wandering... my new stock has arrived... off to collect for some fun rifle building over the weekend
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Short answer is its a mistake. Has to be. Either its a typo on the weight, or they are referencing wapiti / red hybrids, under the heading red deer. The interbreeding issue confuses matters a lot - just look at the problems they have in Fjordland with trying to determine what belongs under wapiti regulations, and what is classed as a red deer, it can be very subjective on the periphery of their range. Anyway, I know bugger all about the reintroduction of pure elk to Scotland, or which sub-species (there are lots), only that there’s been a few by private land owners. I have no idea how many wapiti/red hybrids you have.
I just remember for years my Grandpa bemoaning how small and poxy the deer in Scotland were. (He’d spent many years pre- and post-war in Canada... his perspective on pretty much everything was warped from years working in the wilderness. He went back in his late 70s after Grandma died and married again and carried on breeding, commendable effort, thats why I have part indigenous rellies in that part of the world. Bloody good bunch they are too.) Anyway, thread wandering... my new stock has arrived... off to collect for some fun rifle building over the weekend
A lot of my family and friends are Metis or Cree . What part of Canada was your Grandfather living in ? Sorry for the derail .
AB
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Shooting fallow with a 100gr hornady interlock in 243win is probably the minimum. Shooting with a 3006 and 180gr sierra game king is ideal and launching them into space consistently with a 300 weatherby using 220gr interlocks causes way to much meat damage but they never make it more than 5m.
A simple answer to the tread is aye a .243 is enough for all British deer species
+1
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