The future is electric
- Thread starter steve sxs
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Oly
Well-Known Member
Like I say, there are rapids that charge in less than 5 minutes, but no idea where you are.
Odd you didn't find a suitable option in the links, I'd have thought this would have suited most people without a drive, but I don't know your situation.
Good luck.
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Roughly, for a car sized thing, rule of thumb is that you can do about 3.5 miles per kWh of battery. So that takes about 70 kWh of battery. That's a fresh one, maybe degrades 20% before a battery warranty might kick in.
So yes, most things can't do that, Nissan Leafs etc.
Two of my friends run around in Tesla 3 extended range twin motor 4WD jobs, 82 kWh. Yes, they can do 250 miles. And do long journeys, regularly, in them, 20,000 miles/year. They are fantastic things to drive, not that you could fit a couple of deer, and clobber, in the boot. Almost zero maintenance, service every 3 years and that's mostly to check that the brakes haven't seized up from lack of use (most braking is regenerative). They do cost about £50,000 though. And the servicing is specialist. Not something for a back street garage or DIY.
Charging from a 13A plug doesn't really cut it. that puts in maybe 3kWh per hour. On an economy night time 7 hour tariff that gets you about 74 miles of driving per day. Or 12 hours of charging could put in enough for 126 miles, which is more useful. Hence they have 7kW chargers installed.
However average UK car use is just 20 miles/day.
Doing 20,000 miles per year means they, on average, might be putting in 16 kWh every day. Very inexpensive motoring for them, but, longer term, the UK government is going to have to address the loss of fuel duty and VAT to home charging. Fuel duty is currently 58p/litre, VAT 20%. (VAT on electricity is just 5%). Which will probably have to mean road pricing.
https://www.racfoundation.org/data/wholesale-fuel-prices-v-pump-prices-data
But putting in your own 7kW charger isn't really an option if e.g. you live in a rented property, as does a relative, who is issued with a more ordinary Tesla 3 for business, which is so favourable in tax advantages that she turned down all the ICE options (some very attractive). And it works for her, together with some pre-planning using public chargers.
Though there is talk of all new build homes having to have chargers installed. Maybe. Talk of plugging into lamp posts seems like a nice idea, but the supply to street lighting isn't sized for that currently, and besides, how many houses are there per lamp post on a typical street of houses with no driveways ?
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Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
When I was working at Tesla their big sales pitch was buy a car and you got free charging at all Tesla superchargers. Has that now been downgraded to pay as you go? A bit like the VW premium service that didn't work on my Phaeton?
Oly
Well-Known Member
A few errors from our real world experience of owning running EVs...
Most do >4mi/kwh, ours averages about 4.5 miles per khw
Battery degradation is about 1% per year. I've never seen any with 20% degradation.
Back street garages do service them, and many do so DIY, as you say it's mostly tyres and brakes. The only bit that "needs" changing annually on ours according to the manufacturer is the pollen filter! There is nothing else to service. Should something go wrong it goes to your nearest main dealer or there are specialists around, many just come direct to you now too...no oil to drop on your drive!
Most ev owners actually charger via a 3pin plug at 2.2kw/hr as most can be fully recharged overnight. However a good percentage of owners do install 7kw chargers or about £600. I self installed 3x for <£300 and got my sparky to check and sign off. Even on old/low supply areas/houses smart chargers can monitor the network to ensure they only charge without tripping.
Building Regs/Planning rules now mean that all new houses have to have chargers installed. I know of half a dozen new estates less than 5yrs old with chargers throughout.
For easy charging in the street see the post above.
Oly
Well-Known Member
I believe it is still free for those who bought into it - I believe it was free for X miles or Y years. The only difference is the supercharger network is soon to be made available to all EV owners.
AFAIK, if you bought a Tesla model S or model X before a certain date, you got free supercharging for the life of the vehicle.
That stopped with the model Y and model 3 and Tesla bill owners of those vehicles for their use of a supercharger
There were various incentives (now all stopped) that when you bought certain variations of a given model you got x thousand kwh or free supercharger use.
In Europe, Tesla has made the supercharger network available to all ev owners.
Part of that is because all the Teslas sold in Europe are fitted with the standard (CCS) connector required for all evs sold in Europe.
It's different in the USA where Teslas use a different charging connector so only Teslas can access the supercharger network
Cheers
Bruce
That stopped with the model Y and model 3 and Tesla bill owners of those vehicles for their use of a supercharger
There were various incentives (now all stopped) that when you bought certain variations of a given model you got x thousand kwh or free supercharger use.
In Europe, Tesla has made the supercharger network available to all ev owners.
Part of that is because all the Teslas sold in Europe are fitted with the standard (CCS) connector required for all evs sold in Europe.
It's different in the USA where Teslas use a different charging connector so only Teslas can access the supercharger network
Cheers
Bruce
It all depends on usage. The more you use them the more it degrades.
E.g. an ex GF bought an Nissan Leaf some years ago, for her daily commute, about 70 miles. Just 35 miles each way. That's 14,000 miles/year, at 200 working days/year. The battery was shagged after about 2.5 years, and very reluctantly Nissan replaced it under warranty. She then sold it whilst it still had a little value and went back to a relatively inexpensive ICE car. That was a common occurrence back in the day, not so long ago. Google Nissan Leaf depreciation for example.
That's why I suggested that a battery warranty might kick in after 20% degradation. Whilst it is in warranty. That's what it is for, and is a calculated risk for the warranty providers. Who expect to profit from this, overall, otherwise they wouldn't do it. I wasn't suggesting that that might be commonplace for lightly used vehicles, but it is a concern for those who actually use them every day, up to their design spec.
My Teslerati friends, and the relative who gets issued with hers by the company, don't have to consider this. They either get issued a new one every few years, or they swap them out on a similar timescale, being quite wealthy. That said, their batteries are doing well, even though they regularly run them down quite low, and supercharge them from time to time. The Tesla battery management seems to be quite good, as with the thermal management of the power pack (rather critical). Others may be less good.
Perhaps Oly you could tell us what you drive, and how much you use it (miles/year for example).
Battery degradation is a function of several variables such as:
Battery temperature (Nissan Leaf batteries in cars based in Arizona did not last long in the high temperatures found there.
How frequently the battery is rapid charged i.e charges rates of 50Kw and over
How high the battery is charged and how low it's allowed to go before it's recharged
Most ev now have battery packs with good thermal management so that they don't get too hot or too cold
More and more evs are starting to use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries which, although they have slightly less capacity than Lithium manganese cobalt battery packs, last longer, don't catch fire and can be charged to 100% and discharged to 0% without causing any degradation.
All the Tesla model 3 made in China now come with lithium iron phosphate battery packs.
Another obvious advantage of these batteries is that they contain zero cobalt or nickel and that the iron in them is plentiful and cheap.
en.wikipedia.org
Cheers
Bruce
Battery temperature (Nissan Leaf batteries in cars based in Arizona did not last long in the high temperatures found there.
How frequently the battery is rapid charged i.e charges rates of 50Kw and over
How high the battery is charged and how low it's allowed to go before it's recharged
Most ev now have battery packs with good thermal management so that they don't get too hot or too cold
More and more evs are starting to use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries which, although they have slightly less capacity than Lithium manganese cobalt battery packs, last longer, don't catch fire and can be charged to 100% and discharged to 0% without causing any degradation.
All the Tesla model 3 made in China now come with lithium iron phosphate battery packs.
Another obvious advantage of these batteries is that they contain zero cobalt or nickel and that the iron in them is plentiful and cheap.
Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia
Cheers
Bruce
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Again, when I was working at Tesla ho hum the techies there told me that the battery packs were built up with 4.500 normally available 18650s connected together somehow & sourced from only two Chinese factories that could keep the quality up to Teslas spec.
That's not quite true.
Tesla model S and model X (the first high volume Teslas) use Panasonic 18650 lithium ion batteries and typically there are 6000-7500 individual cells in each pack. However, these batteries are made in Panasonic factories in Japan, not China
Tesla has had a deal with Panasonic for many years for the supply of 1850 batteries for Tesla cars and even the latest all singing and all dancing fast as f**k tesl model S plaid uses 18650 batteries
The newer model 3 and model Y Teslas use 21700 lithium cells (21mm diameter x 70mm long) - also made by Panasonic but at a factory in Nevada, USA
Tesla has designed, and is about to use a 4680 (46mm diameter x 80mm long) battery in a battery pack in the Tesla model Y being produced at new factories in Austin, Texas and Berlin
This battery pack will form the central structure of the car and will be attached to a single "giga casting" at either end.
These castings will eliminate many individual parts at the front and rear of the vehicle and so reduce the cost and time of assembly.
Tesla already builds card 3 times faster than VW
Tesla Can Make an Electric Vehicle in 10 Hours, Volkswagen Production and CEO Unable to Keep Up
Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess spoke to workers this week in Germany, sounding a bit worried as he recounted Tesla's 10 hour production time. Will VW ever be able to keep up with the EV maker?
www.motorbiscuit.com
Tesla's record Q1 powered by increased gross margin, average cost decreases
Cheers
Bruce
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
It was back in 2014 and thats what I was told we were not allowed access to the assembly area due to industrial espionage risks in the day, but as a retired body engineer the concept of die casting the structures in large lumps is a massive leap forward in engineering plus rust reduction, downside is when the die casting machine breaks down as they will but Musk will have more waiting to take up the slack, it makes insurance costs rise but lots of steel structures get written off way before this amount of damage. The thing that struck me most in the design office there was how many dressed down workers were wearing Harvard/MIT/Berkeley T shirts. Compare that to the traditional car industry where working your way up from a crap educational start (me for example) is the normal way.That's not quite true.
Tesla model S and model X (the first high volume Teslas) use Panasonic 18650 lithium ion batteries and typically there are 6000-7500 individual cells in each pack. However, these batteries are made in Panasonic factories in Japan, not China
Tesla has had a deal with Panasonic for many years for the supply of 1850 batteries for Tesla cars and even the latest all singing and all dancing fast as f**k tesl model S plaid uses 18650 batteries
The newer model 3 and model Y Teslas use 21700 lithium cells (21mm diameter x 70mm long) - also made by Panasonic but at a factory in Nevada, USA
Tesla has designed, and is about to use a 4680 (46mm diameter x 80mm long) battery in a battery pack in the Tesla model Y being produced at new factories in Austin, Texas and Berlin
This battery pack will form the central structure of the car and will be attached to a single "giga casting" at either end.
These castings will eliminate many individual parts at the front and rear of the vehicle and so reduce the cost and time of assembly.
Tesla already builds card 3 times faster than VW
and has a much higher profit margin per vehicle (30%) than any of the major car makers (8-10%)Tesla Can Make an Electric Vehicle in 10 Hours, Volkswagen Production and CEO Unable to Keep Up
Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess spoke to workers this week in Germany, sounding a bit worried as he recounted Tesla's 10 hour production time. Will VW ever be able to keep up with the EV maker?
Tesla's record Q1 powered by increased gross margin, average cost decreases
Cheers
Bruce
I am a fan of how they do their production but its way over my pay level for buying one, maybe an EV Jimney one day.
That video is rather old now, things have moved on.
Tesla used to have complete control over their batteries, which they made in their Gigafactories, in collaboration with Panasonic. That was quite a thing at the time.
That relationship has now ended, I think. And I'm sure that they have moved forward now that they know more about how to optimise their designs and progress.
Panasonic, Tesla’s Oldest Industrial Partner, Said To Have Sold Off Its Entire Tesla Stake
Yes they are now using LiFePo cells in lower end models, for cost reasons primarily. Maybe that will increase durability, but I don't think that is the main driver.
Tesla switches all standard-range vehicles to LiFePo chemistry
Other manufacturers have gone other ways, mostly not down the route of stacking huge numbers of cylindrical cells into a bundle. The easy way for Tesla, when they started, but perhaps not going forward. Which is better, I dunno, but it is interesting to observe.
Then there is the question of where these batteries are to be made. In "Gigafactories" perhaps, of which there are many proposals for the UK, including possibly a Tesla investment.
Nissan have one in Sunderland, their early technology seemingly turned out not to be so good, but maybe it's different now.
Other car makers have their own ideas, and plans, but for sure there will need to be a huge increase in capacity when EVs catch on. Raw material availability being just one aspect.
This sort of thing.
Then there is the recycling aspect, which has been researched and pilot plants demonstrated, but at the moment it is uneconomic, cheaper to just make new ones.
It is all very interesting, and, basically, engineering plus economics, with innumerate political pressure, will make it happen, but there might be a few bumps along the way.
Interesting times.
Oly
Well-Known Member
We've got a 6yo, 46k, Leaf, doing 10 -12k/yr now. Ours has gone up in value since we bought it!
Sounds good, but can you even drive it for 100 miles (they were never good for more than 150 optimistically, when they came out)We've got a 6yo, 46k, Leaf, doing 10 -12k/yr now. Ours has gone up in value since we bought it!
If yours is at least six years old, then it must be generation 1, if so it might have a 30 kWh battery. When that was new.
Like my ex GF's, that soon conked out after just doing her daily 70 mile commute. Which probably took the battery from full to nearly empty most days. It had I think, the 30 kWh battery, but it was already struggling after 18 months. She just couldn't rely on it, after doing her commute, then some other running around, and had to be transported back home a couple of times. No good at all, which is why she got rid of it. There were no fast chargers on her route, and still aren't. Besides that was not what was promised, only a few years ago, she thought that it would work for her, but it did not.
Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia
Obviously it suits you so crack on. While it lasts.
BTW, a quick search suggests that even the pitiful 24 kWh battery that they first came out with, might cost $5500 to replace.
There has been progress since, you can even specify a modern Leaf with a 62 kWh battery.
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Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I just do body engineering not all that invisible (so non existent like Covid) electric stuff I cant even change a light bulb.
Well the Teslas, even the model 3 are pretty whacky in some respects. The way the doors open upwards. Which usually works, but then, if they don't, say in an accident there is the lever that you can pull to break them open. My Tesla owning chums are a bit paranoid about that, first time you get offered a ride in one you might get a briefing on never to pull that lever, it is not the way to open the door. Which, TBH is a little obscure at the best of times.I just do body engineering not all that invisible (so non existent like Covid) electric stuff I cant even change a light bulb.
Oly
Well-Known Member
I know there have been a few bad ones (which always get blown up online) but most are still going. I seem to recall Nissan saying that >90% Leafs are still on the road. Ours is 24khw, and still has really good state of health. To be honest it's so good, and so well made we have been looking into getting the battery doubled, using recycled/refurbed batteries from crashed cars, costs about £3k. We've still got plenty of life in the battery yet though, so likely to be several years away yet.
Lets see. Yours does 4.5 miles per kWh so you say. So if the 24 kWh battery is still as good as when it was new, that would give you a range of 108 miles. Ho hum.
As I said, my GF's one of similar vintage was knackered after about 18 months of her daily 70 mile commute, plus other driving around. That's probably 20,000 miles/year. Fair does, Nissan replaced the battery then she got rid of it after 3 years, when the HP agreement was done. Lost a load of beans though, compared with just sticking with a diesel Golf that she had run for years and still had years of life left in it. The buyer probably got a bargain. So she bought another petrol Golf. That does well over 55mpg, better than her old diesel one..
My Tesla driving chums expect 360 miles from their long range ones, and the relative with a standard one expects 278 miles. She has not been disappointed, two days/week she has to drive into her London office from southern Kent, that's 140 miles round trip. Each time. About 14,000 miles/year just for that. Never a worry for her. Earlier this year she took a trip up to the highlands of Scotland and around some of the coast. With some planning, and usually just plugging in to a 13A socket overnight at the AirB&Bs, she made it easily, albeit some anxious moments at times.
One of the others tries to visit his aged parents every couple of weeks, which is a 300 mile round trip, which it can do. That's maybe 8000 miles/year just for that. And so relaxing, with it's self steering on the A and M roads. Though he usually tries to top it up there, and along the way, simply to avoid wearing out the battery more than necessary. Since it is his personal thing, paid for from his own money, and he would quite like it to last for a good many years. As he put it to me, if he can get ten years out of it, then probably still sell it for a tidy sum, it's not so bad. At worst £100/week even if it was worth zero, which it won't be.
Compare that with drudges locked into PCP contracts for say £400/month for a basic car, that expire every three years then you start again.
Though he has said to me that it is such fun to drive, and so inexpensive to do so, that he gets great pleasure from just taking it out for a spin, and so is doing far more miles than is strictly necessary. Which is great, e.g. I happened to be at a brothers place about 80 miles away, and he buzzed over to see me, over hill and dale, a splendid route, for a cup of tea and a chat. He wouldn't have done that in his old big diesel truck, which he also keeps, to tow his horsebox, and yacht.
