To 6.5 or not to 6.5 that is the question!

[hendrix's rifle]

This video compares box listed vs actual velocities including 6.5 and indicates that on a 26 inch barrel in 6.5CM there is very little difference to PRC -> .

Correct, to a 16 inch barreled PRC. Which isn't made to be shot through a short tube... Use it for what's it's made for, sending a 140g north of 3k fps

 

[hendrix's rifle]

It’s not.

The 7-08 and creedmoor are almost identical in capacity at 52.2/52.5 grains of water respectively.

The 6.5 PRC is far closer to the the .280, in comparison, 68.8 grains vs 67.9 whilst the 7 mm rem mag is 82 grains so a real step up from the 7-08.

The PRC isn’t really a magnum at all with similar or lower muzzle energy to .308 it’s really not much of a step up from creedmoor, it’s 30-06 family at best. In fact it loses out to the 25-06 by 150 to 200 fps with a 120 grain bullet so would do the same with a 6.5-06.

This one really is just marketing!

But what I'm saying is it's LIKE saying that. They're completely different animals. On the contrary, a youtuber recently took a 308 up to 300wm velocities

I'd also disagree on the 308 reference, the quick maths I've just done shows around 500ftlbs energy difference between the PRC in a standard load and a 308 in a standard load. Obviously it also retains more energy sustainability further.

I've also checked the load data between 25-06 and PRC on hodgdon's site, it certainly isn't losing out to the 25-06 in the slightest using a 120g bullet. The max book data for PRC is 3170 something with a Barnes bullet. Max for the 25 is ironically the same number with a lead core bullet. (I believe that does have an effect, during my time reloading I've always noticed the Barnes appears to be slower than the equal lead bullet).

Now with a 100g bullet, the 25 is 3430fps whilst the PRC is 3470. The PRC genuinely appears to be a pretty much given 250-300fps more than the same bullet out of the creedmoor (all things being equal).
I would have cross referenced viht however it isn't letting me on the site unfortunately.

It just doesn't compare.

Edit - missed your post underneath! My bad

 

[turner.jc1]

Ive never had a 243 but have had a 6.5CM which i swapped for a 6.5 PRC. The 6.5s offer a hell of a lot more than the 6mms and aren’t really in the same ballpark for hunting if using optimal bullet weights for each caliber. But having said this it depends on what you’re hunting, and what bullets/bullet weights you want to shoot. One big plus with these newer cartridges is the case design means it doesn’t stretch nearly as easily (not much case trimming) and they come with an 8 twist as standard, so all good for the hand loader from the factory.

The 6.5 PRC can fire a 156gr Berger at 3000 fps + from a 22” barrel , or a 127gr Barnes`LRX at 3200 +. The 6.5 CM does the same but 200fps slower from a 24” barrel in my experience, although you wouldnt probably get that from the 156s due to a relatively small case, but it holds true up to 140 class bullets. The PRC is a small magnum, but the recoil is not heavy so it’s more of a good thing especially with copper bullets at longer ranges or with larger animals. It’s effectively a 6.5-06 AI if that helps put it into perspective.

Both the 6MM and 6.5MM are very well served with an array of bullet choices and cartridges, and both have their place. The 6.5s offer the option of bullets around 50gr heavier than 6mms if required whilst remaining in a sweet spot of of 100-160gr bullets that are suitable for a wide array of body weights and offering best in class BC when over 120gr. The 6mms go from around 80-115gr bullets for hunting as I’m sure you know, so more specialised for smaller species ideally.

 

[25 Sharps]

But what I'm saying is it's LIKE saying that. They're completely different animals. On the contrary, a youtuber recently took a 308 up to 300wm velocities

I'd also disagree on the 308 reference, the quick maths I've just done shows around 500ftlbs energy difference between the PRC in a standard load and a 308 in a standard load. Obviously it also retains more energy sustainability further.

I've also checked the load data between 25-06 and PRC on hodgdon's site, it certainly isn't losing out to the 25-06 in the slightest using a 120g bullet. The max book data for PRC is 3170 something with a Barnes bullet. Max for the 25 is ironically the same number with a lead core bullet. (I believe that does have an effect, during my time reloading I've always noticed the Barnes appears to be slower than the equal lead bullet).

Now with a 100g bullet, the 25 is 3430fps whilst the PRC is 3470. The PRC genuinely appears to be a pretty much given 250-300fps more than the same bullet out of the creedmoor (all things being equal).
I would have cross referenced viht however it isn't letting me on the site unfortunately.

It just doesn't compare.

Edit - missed your post underneath! My bad

I know exactly what you are saying but its not!!

Comparing CM to PRC is LIKE comparing a .308 class cartridge to a 30-06 class cartridge.
Comparing a .308 class cartridge to a magnum cartridge is not LIKE comparing it to a 30-06 class cartridge, which is the true comparison.
PRC is NOT LIKE a magnum cartridge, which is what you are saying, a magnum is a real step up in capacity, power and velocity - you have taken it a step too far.

As for getting 300 win mag velocities from a .308, we could probably all do it with palma brass, a long barrel and a strong action, doesn't mean its safe!!

I can get 2900 fps with a 139 gr scenar and RS60 out of my 26" creedmoor or 2850 with ramshot hunter from my 26" barrel, small primer pocket brass, within load data with no apparent pressure signs. Nosler's data, which is generally not conservative, for a 26" PRC ranges from 2806 fps to 3113 fps so where is your 250 - 300 fps advantage? Maybe I just have a fast barrel.

For comparison, my .280 will run a 140 grain NBT at 3200 fps, 7 mm rem mag at 3300+.

As for questioning the maths, for an even playing field you need to look at comparable factory loads-

Hornady list

6.5 PRC loads from 2555 to 2782 ft-lb (143 gr eldx)

.308 loads from 1986 to 2997 ft-lb (150 gr SST)

But for hand loads, Nosler load data -

6.5 PRC most powerful loads are around 3200-3250 ft-lb - 26" barrel

.308 Win most powerful loads are around 3100 ft-lb - 24" barrel.

A 26" barrel would close the gap say 30-40 ft-lb, so where is your 500 ft-lb advantage?.

The PRC is not a magnum cartridge, it runs necked down 30-06 family velocities or less, you have just fallen for the marketing! Where it does have an advantage is the sleek 6.5 mm bullets but the bullet doesn't make a magnum, the case does. The 7 PRC and particularly the 300 PRC really are magnum cartridges and at some point when I have the cash I am going to build a 7-300 PRC which will be a real beast! (and comparable to 7 mm rem mag )

 

[25 Sharps]

I have to disagree.

I have shot identical bullets (143 eldx and 147 eldm) from 24” barrelled CM and PRC.

With factory or home loaded ammo, there is a 250-300fps difference.

I can load my CM to close to PRC factory speeds. But I can then load the PRC as well, and regain the difference.

See my post below.

Are you disagreeing with the creedmoor to PRC comparison or the 25-06 to PRC?

Are you saying you are getting higher speeds than the nosler data? that is giving 200 fps over my creedmoor loads?

6.5 PRC Load Data

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25-06 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

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I am not saying the PRC doesn't offer an advantage but its not really much of an advantage in terms of velocity or muzzle energy and its certainly not a magnum - @turner.jc1 seems to have drawn the same conclusion, comparing it to a 6.5-06AI....

 

[25 Sharps]

Ive never had a 243 but have had a 6.5CM which i swapped for a 6.5 PRC. The 6.5s offer a hell of a lot more than the 6mms and aren’t really in the same ballpark for hunting if using optimal bullet weights for each caliber. But having said this it depends on what you’re hunting, and what bullets/bullet weights you want to shoot. One big plus with these newer cartridges is the case design means it doesn’t stretch nearly as easily (not much case trimming) and they come with an 8 twist as standard, so all good for the hand loader from the factory.

The 6.5 PRC can fire a 156gr Berger at 3000 fps + from a 22” barrel , or a 127gr Barnes`LRX at 3200 +. The 6.5 CM does the same but 200fps slower from a 24” barrel in my experience, although you wouldnt probably get that from the 156s due to a relatively small case, but it holds true up to 140 class bullets. The PRC is a small magnum, but the recoil is not heavy so it’s more of a good thing especially with copper bullets at longer ranges or with larger animals. It’s effectively a 6.5-06 AI if that helps put it into perspective.

Both the 6MM and 6.5MM are very well served with an array of bullet choices and cartridges, and both have their place. The 6.5s offer the option of bullets around 50gr heavier than 6mms if required whilst remaining in a sweet spot of of 100-160gr bullets that are suitable for a wide array of body weights and offering best in class BC when over 120gr. The 6mms go from around 80-115gr bullets for hunting as I’m sure you know, so more specialised for smaller species ideally.

But where do you get off the bus? My 26" .280 shoots a 140 at 3200 fps or a 165 at 2950 fps. . . . .

I think the 7 PRC is probably a useful step up from the creedmoor and has the powder capacity to get decent velocity with the higher BC 7 mm bullets.

 

[jthyttin]

Nosler's data, which is generally not conservative,

You can go round'n'round cherrypicking data, and putting tested data agains your own untested data, but in the end you need to compare apples to apples if you want valid results.

For 140gr class, fastest that Nosler lists for Creedmoor is 2733fps from 24" barrel. Throw in another 50fps if you like, to account for 2 extra inches and it's a bit below 2800fps.

For PRC, fastest load is 3113fps for 26" barrel. There is the 300fps advantage you were asking for.

Hornady was not creating "magnum" with 6.5 PRC. They wanted to create a cartridge that provided the little bit of extra oomph, that were lacking in 6.5 Creedmoor. At the same time keeping recoil to minimum, and barrel life etc. to maximum. Granted, since PRC doesn't fit in short action, you could go for e.g. 6.5x55 AI for the same results. 6.5-06 might not be such a good idea, depending on action and mag.

As to your question about fatter case or less taper (reply to my post), for some reason I was under the impressino that Creedmoor (and 30 TC for that matter) had a bit fatter case to create extra case capacity. Then I started thinking, that they don't have rebated rim, and edited my post. Now, after checking CIP, I can say that any modification to enlarge the case capacity in Creedmoor/TC are just gimmicks. Judging on chamber dimensions, there's nothing to it compared to 308 family.

 

[olliehopes]

I'm going to clang a spanner in the works!

I shoot both 6.5x55 and 7mm-08.

Love my 6.5. shoots lovely, hole on hole etc etc. terminal effect is dead deer.

The 7mm with it's slightly wider bullet and higher cross sectional density, dispite using same weight bullet hits harder.

Both are factory ammo being pushed at approximately 50fps +/-.

If you're going to home load for a calibre, make it god's choice for lowland. Make it a 7mm-08

 

[DavyG]

You can go round'n'round cherrypicking data, and putting tested data agains your own untested data, but in the end you need to compare apples to apples if you want valid results.

For 140gr class, fastest that Nosler lists for Creedmoor is 2733fps from 24" barrel. Throw in another 50fps if you like, to account for 2 extra inches and it's a bit below 2800fps.

For PRC, fastest load is 3113fps for 26" barrel. There is the 300fps advantage you were asking for.

Hornady was not creating "magnum" with 6.5 PRC. They wanted to create a cartridge that provided the little bit of extra oomph, that were lacking in 6.5 Creedmoor. At the same time keeping recoil to minimum, and barrel life etc. to maximum. Granted, since PRC doesn't fit in short action, you could go for e.g. 6.5x55 AI for the same results. 6.5-06 might not be such a good idea, depending on action and mag.

As to your question about fatter case or less taper (reply to my post), for some reason I was under the impressino that Creedmoor (and 30 TC for that matter) had a bit fatter case to create extra case capacity. Then I started thinking, that they don't have rebated rim, and edited my post. Now, after checking CIP, I can say that any modification to enlarge the case capacity in Creedmoor/TC are just gimmicks. Judging on chamber dimensions, there's nothing to it compared to 308 family.

Fatter case, longer barrels, more MV, less energy…blah blah.
You can load both to fire a 120gr bullet at the same speed.
The PRC will have no advantage over the CM, or for that matter the 25.06 until you put it to the use it was designed for.
Ps…it’s shorter than a 25.06 but fatter than a .308.

 

[25 Sharps]

You can go round'n'round cherrypicking data, and putting tested data agains your own untested data, but in the end you need to compare apples to apples if you want valid results.

For 140gr class, fastest that Nosler lists for Creedmoor is 2733fps from 24" barrel. Throw in another 50fps if you like, to account for 2 extra inches and it's a bit below 2800fps.

For PRC, fastest load is 3113fps for 26" barrel. There is the 300fps advantage you were asking for.

Hornady was not creating "magnum" with 6.5 PRC. They wanted to create a cartridge that provided the little bit of extra oomph, that were lacking in 6.5 Creedmoor. At the same time keeping recoil to minimum, and barrel life etc. to maximum. Granted, since PRC doesn't fit in short action, you could go for e.g. 6.5x55 AI for the same results. 6.5-06 might not be such a good idea, depending on action and mag.

As to your question about fatter case or less taper (reply to my post), for some reason I was under the impressino that Creedmoor (and 30 TC for that matter) had a bit fatter case to create extra case capacity. Then I started thinking, that they don't have rebated rim, and edited my post. Now, after checking CIP, I can say that any modification to enlarge the case capacity in Creedmoor/TC are just gimmicks. Judging on chamber dimensions, there's nothing to it compared to 308 family.

Hornady market the PRC as a compact magnum, @hendrix's rifle made a direct comparison with 7 mm rem mag. That was the comparison I was disagreeing with.

The lack of rebated rim on the creedmoor was what my brain thinking on the fatter case comparison too.

Why would a 6.5-06 be any issue at all being virtually the same as 25-06 but with better bullet choice?

 

[25 Sharps]

Fatter case, longer barrels, more MV, less energy…blah blah.
You can load both to fire a 120gr bullet at the same speed.
The PRC will have no advantage over the CM, or for that matter the 25.06 until you put it to the use it was designed for.
Ps…it’s shorter than a 25.06 but fatter than a .308.

But still needs a long action and the inconvenience of a magnum bolt face.

 

[25 Sharps]

I'm going to clang a spanner in the works!

I shoot both 6.5x55 and 7mm-08.

Love my 6.5. shoots lovely, hole on hole etc etc. terminal effect is dead deer.

The 7mm with it's slightly wider bullet and higher cross sectional density, dispite using same weight bullet hits harder.

Both are factory ammo being pushed at approximately 50fps +/-.

If you're going to home load for a calibre, make it god's choice for lowland. Make it a 7mm-08

Nah, .280 outclasses the 7-08 any day of the week, must do, I shoot one

 

[DavyG]

But still needs a long action and the inconvenience of a magnum bolt face.

Long action…? Did Hornady not design it to be used in a short action…?
I admit to building the one I have on a TRG42, but only because it’ll rebarrel to the next project…7mm PRC

 

[Mungo]

See my post below.

Are you disagreeing with the creedmoor to PRC comparison or the 25-06 to PRC?

Are you saying you are getting higher speeds than the nosler data? that is giving 200 fps over my creedmoor loads?

6.5 PRC Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

25-06 Remington Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

I am not saying the PRC doesn't offer an advantage but its not really much of an advantage in terms of velocity or muzzle energy and its certainly not a magnum - @turner.jc1 seems to have drawn the same conclusion, comparing it to a 6.5-06AI....

I have to admit it got a bit lost in the various slightly different directions the thread was going in.

You’re right - PRC not a magnum. It offers more than a CM in a like-for-like comparison (same bullet, same barrel length, factory v factory or home v home loads).

CM sits comfortably in the mild mid range of medium deer cartridges. It offers more than a .243 and about the same as a .308 or .7-08. PRC is similar to the higher velocity medium deer cartridges, like .270 and (exactly as you point out) .25-06.

There’s no fair way to slice it and claim that a CM is equivalent to a PRC.

 

[DavyG]

I have to admit it got a bit lost in the various slightly different directions the thread was going in.

You’re right - PRC not a magnum. It offers more than a CM in a like-for-like comparison (same bullet, same barrel length, factory v factory or home v home loads).

CM sits comfortably in the mild mid range of medium deer cartridges. It offers more than a .243 and about the same as a .308 or .7-08. PRC is similar to the higher velocity medium deer cartridges, like .270 and (exactly as you point out) .25-06.

There’s no fair way to slice it and claim that a CM is equivalent to a PRC.

One is certainly similar to the other but it can’t be the “same” as anything else, because it’s “different”.

 

[tacklerat]

I shot a lot of Fallow Deer with my 243, Winchester mod 70 Feather weight. I loved the rifle, but after shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor target rifle, I got the urge to try the round for hunting. I have a very nice load for lighter skinned animals using a 123gn SST. I feral goat I shot recently certainly didn't complain. It does allow the use of heavier bullets, than the 243. The rifle is a Tikka lite, and I love the bloody thing. I also have some 130gn Accubonds that look promising.

 

[25 Sharps]

Long action…? Did Hornady not design it to be used in a short action…?
I admit to building the one I have on a TRG42, but only because it’ll rebarrel to the next project…7mm PRC

My guess is most people build them on long actions.

Go the whole hog and build a 7-300 PRC, that would be

 

[25 Sharps]

I have to admit it got a bit lost in the various slightly different directions the thread was going in.

You’re right - PRC not a magnum. It offers more than a CM in a like-for-like comparison (same bullet, same barrel length, factory v factory or home v home loads).

CM sits comfortably in the mild mid range of medium deer cartridges. It offers more than a .243 and about the same as a .308 or .7-08. PRC is similar to the higher velocity medium deer cartridges, like .270 and (exactly as you point out) .25-06.

There’s no fair way to slice it and claim that a CM is equivalent to a PRC.

I’m not saying it is, it’s clearly faster as you can get more powder behind the bullet.

I’m saying it’s not a magnum and not a big step up….

 

[25 Sharps]

A .243 is a deer rifle for people scared of recoil. Simple as that

 

[Rutland lad]

It’s not.

The 7-08 and creedmoor are almost identical in capacity at 52.2/52.5 grains of water respectively.

The 6.5 PRC is far closer to the the .280, in comparison, 68.8 grains vs 67.9 whilst the 7 mm rem mag is 82 grains so a real step up from the 7-08.

The PRC isn’t really a magnum at all with similar or lower muzzle energy to .308 it’s really not much of a step up from creedmoor, it’s 30-06 family at best. In fact it loses out to the 25-06 by 150 to 200 fps with a 120 grain bullet so would do the same with a 6.5-06.

This one really is just marketing!

Interesting reading your case capacity on the Creedmore.
On my 6.5x55 swede, using LAPUA cases I measure the capacity at a midge under 60 grains.