Travelling with loaded magazines

[Dalua]

"A firearm is deemed to be loaded if ammunition is in either the chamber, or the magazine from where it is capable of being fed into the chamber".
(Parkes & Thornley. Deer: Law & Liabilities. Page 135, paragraph 2).

So there you have it.

The next question, then, is when does this matter in law with respect to someone with an S1 firearm, and ammuntion for it, in their possession?

There seems to be some who think that there is a law (or laws) which forbid having a loaded firearm of one kind or another in a public place.
Does anyone know whether there are such law/s?

 

[Twodogs]

why not it yourself and prove me wrong when you get your day in court ? Ultimately its the CPS who take up the case or not but a loaded gun doesn't have to be one in the chamber by any means

???

 

[Twodogs]

"A firearm is deemed to be loaded if ammunition is in either the chamber, or the magazine from where it is capable of being fed into the chamber".
(Parkes & Thornley. Deer: Law & Liabilities. Page 135, paragraph 2).

So there you have it.

Unfortunately I do not have access to said book. Please can you let me know the cross reference to the relevant legislation, keen to further one’s knowledge and understanding.

 

[VSS]

Unfortunately I do not have access to said book. Please can you let me know the cross reference to the relevant legislation, keen to further one’s knowledge and understanding.

I'll have a look when I get a chance, and see what is referenced.
It's a book that all stalkers should have a copy of, imo.

There seems to be some who think that there is a law (or laws) which forbid having a loaded firearm of one kind or another in a public place.
Does anyone know whether there are such law/s?

I don't think there is such a law.
Provided you have "lawful authority or reasonable excuse", you can have a firearm (loaded or not), anywhere you like as far as I can make out.
Section 19 of the Firearms Act 1968 (England, Wales and Scotland), and article 20(1) Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 1991 are the relevant bits of legislation I think.

Seriously, if you had a permission with a road running through it and, if while stalking a deer, you had to cross from one side of the road to the other, would you unload your rifle? I certainly wouldn't!

 

[Bowland blades]

???

typo error mess up there that's all !

 

[Dalua]

why not it yourself and prove me wrong when you get your day in court ? Ultimately its the CPS who take up the case or not but a loaded gun doesn't have to be one in the chamber by any means

There's clearly nothing in law regulating loaded magazines which are not actually fitted to firearms/air-weapons. There seems to be a definition of 'loaded' which applies in law to shotguns and air-weapons - but I'm not aware that it has any relevance to S1 firearms.
Indeed, it would be a curious thing if it were unlawful to have a loaded S1 or S2 firearm in a public place, as it is under some circumstances lawful to shoot from/in public places.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

My ruger m77 is a top loader, the bolt is stored in the rifle and travels in the rifle, no difference between than and an under lever 30-30.

When I had a tikka, same the bolt never left the rifle and the mag was stored separately with bullets in ready to go.

As long as they’re separate and on your person I.e in your pocket what’s the problem??

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

 

[potshotpat]

I've got a magazine called Loaded from the nineties for sale, some pages missing, some pages seem to be adhered together.

 

[tikkawarrior]

Dont know why anyone would bother taking the chance of leaving rounds in the mag with the gun, takes 10 seconds to empty it / separate it

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Dont know why anyone would bother taking the chance of leaving rounds in the mag with the gun, takes 10 seconds to empty it / separate it

Simple- unload the chamber, pop the mag out, put the chambered round back In the mag and put in pocket.

Simples

 

[enfieldspares]

Simple- unload the chamber, pop the mag out, put the chambered round back In the mag and put in pocket.

Simples

Once upon a time they made the SMLE with a magazine cut-off! Load the magazine, press the rounds down, push the cut-off across, close the bolt, "ease springs", and off you march. For as the manual say that cut-off was NOT to make the weapon a single loader but a safety feature to enable a loaded rifle to be carried with an empty chamber and was a throwback off the old Lee Metford that didn't have a safety catch but only a magazine cut-off as a safety device to carry the rifle with a loaded magazine and the bolt springs "eased".

 

[Dalua]

Dont know why anyone would bother taking the chance of leaving rounds in the mag with the gun, takes 10 seconds to empty it / separate it

This thread is, I think, about understanding what might be meant by 'taking the chance' -that is to say, is it a chance of being found guilty of some offence in law; or merely a chance that someone might think it imprudent.

My take is that it is not unlawful, and that whether it's imprudent or not depends on how your define 'in transit'. It would not have a loaded mag with me on the drive to Invernessshire. However, between farms when out in the evening nearer home is another matter: though you could argue that the rifle is less 'in transit' and more 'in use' in that circumstance.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Once upon a time they made the SMLE with a magazine cut-off! Load the magazine, press the rounds down, push the cut-off across, close the bolt, "ease springs", and off you march. For as the manual say that cut-off was NOT to make the weapon a single loader but a safety feature to enable a loaded rifle to be carried with an empty chamber and was a throwback off the old Lee Metford that didn't have a safety catch but only a magazine cut-off as a safety device to carry the rifle with a loaded magazine and the bolt springs "eased".

I never have more than a magazine amount of bullets in my rifles that way you never have to think about the +1 in the chamber, makes life easier

 

[Dalua]

Once upon a time they made the SMLE with a magazine cut-off! Load the magazine, press the rounds down, push the cut-off across, close the bolt, "ease springs", and off you march. For as the manual say that cut-off was NOT to make the weapon a single loader but a safety feature to enable a loaded rifle to be carried with an empty chamber and was a throwback off the old Lee Metford that didn't have a safety catch but only a magazine cut-off as a safety device to carry the rifle with a loaded magazine and the bolt springs "eased".

A welcome thread-derailment!
I was firmly of the view that the magazine-cutoffs on earlyish military magazine-rifles were to allow riflemen to 'volley-fire' by single-loading while keeping the contents of their magazine in reserve. As well as the British Lee variants, I think the Lebel and the Springfield M03 had them in one form or another.
Further, I though they were abandoned partly because th drill of volley-firinge went out of fashion, and partly because of economy of manufacture.
It sounds as though I'm mistaken, though?

 

[enfieldspares]

A welcome thread-derailment!
I was firmly of the view that the magazine-cutoffs on earlyish military magazine-rifles were to allow riflemen to 'volley-fire' by single-loading while keeping the contents of their magazine in reserve. As well as the British Lee variants, I think the Lebel and the Springfield M03 had them in one form or another.
Further, I though they were abandoned partly because th drill of volley-firinge went out of fashion, and partly because of economy of manufacture.
It sounds as though I'm mistaken, though?

Yes and no. It is in Musketry Regulations 1909 which were the ones that they effectively used up to and including WWI. It specifically states that the magazine is not to be used for single loading. What it doesn't say is one major reason why, but that would have needed explanation, as it is that using it as such would damage the extractor in an SMLE.

But I think I've seen reference to the cut-off being used for single loading in the Long Lee I think?

However if you read the 1912 Royal Navy equivalent it does advise using the second notch on the magazine of their Webley .455 Automatic to be be used for such single loading operation. As regards the Army use of the SMLE once the command "LOAD" was given it was the individual soldier's responsibility to keep his rifle loaded until given the command "UNLOAD".

I am a long time off now from shooting Enfield rifles but the cut-off is at least by just pre-WWI for use only as mentioned.

 

[urban]

A person commits an offence if, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof whereof lies on him) he has with him in a public place

(a)a loaded shot gun,

(b)an air weapon (whether loaded or not),

(c)any other firearm (whether loaded or not) together with ammunition suitable for use in that firearm, or

I think this says that I am not committing an offence if I have a S1 rifle ("any other firearm") with me in a public place WITHOUT good reason (e,g, I'm taking it to the pub to show off to the barmaid) as long as I don't have any "ammunition suitable..." with me. I didn't know that.

For what little it's worth, I load 4 x 10 round mags the night before a match and take them with me in the drag bag with the rifle. It's always an early start and if squadded first in the match then I don't want to be worrying about loading mags. When stalking I'll load the mag the night before an early stalk just to give me one less thing to do in the morning. There's a common theme there - I don't trust my brain to work very well before dawn.

 

[Trickyd66]

You are indeed Absolutely correct..but think of the scenario…out on road in car especially a 4x4 around midnight..wearing camo with gun in boot and get stopped by old bill.
Try explaining/Convincing him especially if they are not firearm trained..could spoil your night for sure with time wasting trying to convince them!

I tend to find that 'camo' has little use in the dark, don't drive a 4 × 4, and am pretty sure that if I was doing anything worthy of being stopped they would have run, or be running a check on my vehicle which would flag up legal firearms owner. After all, if I go for a hearing aid appointment or other treatment, even they would know I hold an FAC as it's on my records so I would hope the police do as well!
As an aside, in over 30 years of driving many miles, I have only been stopped 3 times for random checks.

 

[maxtich]

I tend to find that 'camo' has little use in the dark, don't drive a 4 × 4, and am pretty sure that if I was doing anything worthy of being stopped they would have run, or be running a check on my vehicle which would flag up legal firearms owner. After all, if I go for a hearing aid appointment or other treatment, even they would know I hold an FAC as it's on my records so I would hope the police do as well!
As an aside, in over 30 years of driving many miles, I have only been stopped 3 times for random checks.

This scenario has actually happened to me almost a year ago...the lane leading to my farm permission isn't lit very well..and is also a known lover lane, and more its plagued by fly tippers.
The old bill do patrol it late nights ,and pulled me up one night presuming i could be up to no good!
After explaining that i was pest controlling the fields all around here and confirming i had a fire arm in the back..and asked for my licence which i dont carry but a photo my phone i do.they obviously hadn't done the pre stop check as they told me to stay in the car and were then on their radio for confirmation which took a good 15 mins they didnt bother to check the firearm as i showed them my foxing videos on my thermal..carry on sir and have a good night was the final response and im not complaining they were fair.

 

[shakey jake]

I never have more than a magazine amount of bullets in my rifles that way you never have to think about the +1 in the chamber, makes life easier

rounds not bullets lee

 

[palmer_mike]

"A firearm is deemed to be loaded if ammunition is in either the chamber, or the magazine from where it is capable of being fed into the chamber".
(Parkes & Thornley. Deer: Law & Liabilities. Page 135, paragraph 2).

So there you have it.

And if the magazines not in the rifle it isn’t capable of being fed into the chamber.

Panic over