Trophy heads - are we falling into a trap or just a marketing ploy?

[Foxyboy43]

“With respect, that is not what was alleged - releasing birds directly over guns is illegal and zi don't think it happens. I shall remain naive until there is some evidence to show otherwise.”
Sorry but it is not illegal - certainly in NI. Be interested to see where in domestic legislation it is stated as such. There have been several instances of partridges being thrown from cages out of sight of the guns - indeed I watched one of these from a far-off hill which I was stalking on. When I spoke to a pal who was then Wildlife Officer in the NI Environment Agency he confirmed that it is not illegal. That was not the end of it however they were prosecuted for other reasons I cannot go into on this forum.

 

[Apthorpe]

“With respect, that is not what was alleged - releasing birds directly over guns is illegal and zi don't think it happens. I shall remain naive until there is some evidence to show otherwise.”
Sorry but it is not illegal - certainly in NI. Be interested to see where in domestic legislation it is stated as such. There have been several instances of partridges being thrown from cages out of sight of the guns - indeed I watched one of these from a far-off hill which I was stalking on. When I spoke to a pal who was then Wildlife Officer in the NI Environment Agency he confirmed that it is not illegal. That was not the end of it however they were prosecuted for other reasons I cannot go into on this forum.

I refer you to the Captive Birds Shooting (Prohibition) Act 1921. I see no reason why NI should be any different to the rest of the UK.

 

[Foxyboy43]

I refer you to the Captive Birds Shooting (Prohibition) Act 1921. I see no reason why NI should be any different to the rest of the UK.

Thank you for that.
NI like other parts of the UK has transferred powers to make (or not) it’s own legislation on many matters.
Presumably the act you quote has never made it to local statutes.

 

[Heym SR20]

My view on Trophy hunting, is that good trophies are the ultimate sign of a healthy deer, antelope, elephant or whatever population. Trophies will generally be the result of hunting old male animals that are beyond breeding age, and thus the hunting there of has minimal impact on the wider herd structure, and if done properly, probably improves it.

Trophy hunting is often accompanied by large fees levied on the hunters which ensures that the wild places that produce such trophies benefit economically and this remain as wild.

Hunting for meat from wild populations does definitely have a value, and is a viable and valuable additional resource from wild lands, and is often partnered with trophy hunting.

Its easy enough to walk out into the woods and shoot the first deer you see. But when hunting for the “right” animal in may take many many days of being in the field looking at many different animals before you find the right one and squeeze the trigger. The actual shot will be no different, just the time and money invested.

If we did not have trophy hunting or game shooting our wild places would not have survived, and will not survive into the future.

Just look at what is happening to the Scottish uplands and flow country. A large chunk and ever growing chunk is being lost to wind farms. Former grouse moors and stalking estates no longer viable - turned into windfarms that produce very good financial returns.

 

[Apthorpe]

Thank you for that.
NI like other parts of the UK has transferred powers to make (or not) it’s own legislation on many matters.

To the extent of those transferred powers existing in 1921, NI was not like other parts of the UK, and in any event the point stands that it is illegal on the island of Great Britain. I’ve little interest in the matter, but I would have thought that most of the legislation would have been simply nodded through in alignment with the rest of the country with divergence only where it was in the regional interest to do so. They were, after all, Unionists.

Presumably the act you quote has never made it to local statutes.

I think it’s more likely that your Wildlife Officer is a wildlife officer not a Legal Officer. If you think it’s going on, I’d refer him to the legislation and have them check it out.

 

[enfieldspares]

God save us at least from this.

 

[Apthorpe]

God save us at least from this.

See post #42. God, in this case, not necessary.

 

[sh1kar]

Here's my late father's "trophy".

View attachment 449943

What is it?

 

[enfieldspares]

What is it?

It is this, in red, the parachute lug from a German aerial torpedo. For which my late father would later get a "Mention in Despatches".

During the early WWII my father was in charge of a light anti-aircraft defence of one of the RAF airfields down south. A German raider came over and dropped said "bomb". It landed but did not detonate. But the wind was dragging the thing towards the airfield fuel dumps. Being the officer he took it upon himself to run from where he was to the thing and with his pocket knife cut the parachute cords. Disregarding the risk that the thing had not a instant fuse but possibly a delayed action fuse.

After the Royal Engineers bomb disposal had come and defused the thing they unscrewed the lug and gave it to him as a souvenir of the event. It has remained in the family ever since. Indeed some of the silk from the parachute was still at my grandmother's until the 1970s.

 

[Mike1979]

Niall Rowantree did I post on Youtube recently talking about this and to a fair degree I thought it was a point well made.

People are like magpies and like to collect mementos of whatever sort (pretty well sums it up). Shooting decent animals which are often trophies is a good income stream for some and on the basis its legal why shouldnt they make money when the hay shines. If you dont agree then dont do it.

I appreciate shooting stags/bucks has a limited impact on deer numbers over a period of time etc etc but if you have the money to do it and want to then crack on. If you dont then dont. I also disagree that "trophies" are a willy waving contest in any way. I have 10 or so deer skulls displayed and they all remind me of the stalk and bring back good memories...most people would chuck them in the hedge as most are not even close to medal class but they mean something to me.

Each to there own

 

[GlennUK]

Thought provoking thread.

I have never gone in for big for the sake of it when it comes to shooting or fishing.

I have shot driven and am a novice stalker and for me, the size of the critter has little relevance beyond the amount of meat it holds.

When I started stalking my mentor who shoots the same farm (amongst many) and I had a discussion about what to shoot. I then went on the dsc1 course the guy running it spent a lot of time talking about management of deer and in essence gave similar advice about what to shoot in terms of trying to preserve a healthy stock. That may include taking a mature buck at some stage, but i don't hanker after it, i have nowhere to hang the rack, and even if i did Im not entirely convinced that SWMBO would let me hang it up anyway.

But each to their own, and like some other posters i find it odd that it should matter why we shoot a particular animal or not? Id prefer to see shot animals being used for food but i am not sure i have a particular concern where animals are shot for trophies, any more than i have a particular concern where animals are being shot/killed/poisoned because they are causing some form of nuisance.

I am not advocating wanton killing for the sake of it before anyone decides that's what i mean, just that from the animals perspective does it matter if its shot for its rack, its meat, or because its damaging crops for example.

 

[Mike1979]

Thought provoking thread.

I have never gone in for big for the sake of it when it comes to shooting or fishing.

I have shot driven and am a novice stalker and for me, the size of the critter has little relevance beyond the amount of meat it holds.

When I started stalking my mentor who shoots the same farm (amongst many) and I had a discussion about what to shoot. I then went on the dsc1 course the guy running it spent a lot of time talking about management of deer and in essence gave similar advice about what to shoot in terms of trying to preserve a healthy stock. That may include taking a mature buck at some stage, but i don't hanker after it, i have nowhere to hang the rack, and even if i did Im not entirely convinced that SWMBO would let me hang it up anyway.

But each top their own, and like some other posters i find it odd that it should matter why we shoot a particular animal or not? Id prefer to see shot animals being used for food but i am not sure ihave a particualr concenr where animals are shot for trophies, any more than i have a particualr concenr where anuimlas are being shot/killed/poisoned because they are causing some form of nuisance.

I am not advocating wanton killing for the sake of it before anyone decides that's what i mean, just that form the animals perspective does it matter if its shot for its rack, its meat, or because its damaging crops for example.

A lot of good points there mate especially the SWMBO part

For me as a recreational stalker I will only shoot an animal if I can get rid of it so I wouldnt shoot a big stag just for its head. If you look at those charging to shoot animals the carcass will generally find its way into the food chain as its worth something (maybe not munties and CWD).

I think its good we all have different views as it would be boring otherwise.

 

[weblyish]

A trophy would really mean something if you wrestled the deer barehanded
But the rifle does the work and it's no harder to kill a royal as a hind. So you come down to luck of the draw and opportunity

Doesn't mean I'd not keep a nice head of one came along but it doesn't make you a hero

 

[sh1kar]

Broadly I agree with you, except for one thing and it's probably only really relevant for those with their own stalking rather than the ad hoc paying guest. It is this. Often during the doe season or walking the dogs and spying, you spot a particularly fine animal, it may not be a medal, just big or far more interestingly a malform. You then over a period of likely several stalks attempt to outwit the beast and bring it to book. So you have essentially chosen to go after a very specific animal that may give you several days of La Chasse rather than stumbling over a big lad on a days paid stalk. Or in my case one year, find the buck several times but one thing or another conspired against getting it, only for it to disappear at the end of the season and never seen again! JMTCW

S

If you haven't read this then do. This is exactly the spirit of what I was thinking re above and encapsulates trophy stalking perfectly.

Muckle Hart of Benmore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

S

 

[Mountain Bug]

If you haven't read this then do. This is exactly the spirit of what I was thinking re above and encapsulates trophy stalking perfectly.

Muckle Hart of Benmore - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

S

I would highly recommend reading the book as well. It is one of my favorites.


Scott

 

[countrryboy]

I really struggle to understand why any stalker woild be against trophy hunting.
I just cant understand the logic or mentality at all.

Look like many on here not my thing. And even if i could afford it it still wouldnt be my thing but i have no problem with others doing it ( as long as carried out in an ethical way and meat harvested, and ideally when beast is just starting to go back so it has passed its genetics on already)

Most ' working' class stalkers ( for want off a better description) will have some fantastic memorable days out stalking does/hinds.
Do u really think ur day rate is covering the stalkers wage, argo, landy, quad, larder, insurance etc ( and esp so with reds when u can only 'work' for 6 months a year) never mind land or lease costs?
Trophy bucks/stags is where estates are making a larger profit to subsidise days out on the does/hinds.

Also im not a deer manager and my views are pretty old fashioned out of date now when its all about numbers killed per man hr.
Only 30 yrs ago even commercial forestry stalkers would be leaving the largest bucks, esp if near young trees/restock sitrs as he would scare of the young bucks which cause more damage by fraying.
Called it the stand buck, that will never happen nowadays the amount of ground and cull each stalker has to achieve.

But if ur lucky enough to manage deer over a large enough area and long enough time frame to influence the health and genetics of the local deer herd why would u not try to improve it?
Surely only good practice.
Generally speaking the bigger healthier animals will throw bigger healthier offspring and more often than not they will have bigger heads.
Plus generally speaking when deer population/density gets too high stanard of head as well as body wieght will decline, so a fairly easy indicator of overal herd health.
I cant understand why anyone would be against that

If decent deer managers can cull the deer in a way to maximise herd health and trophies its only a good thing.
And for that u need folk to pay extra money for a trophy.
A reponsible farmer or dog breeder would ( or should) not just use any bull, tup or stud dog.
If ur not trying to improve the breed or u can buy better in u shoild not be breeding in 1st place..

If trophy hunting was banned in uk wot do u thinks going to happen to paid stalking prices and availability?
Obvioisly trophy buck/stag prices will fall massively.
But likely doe/hind prices will rise considerably to make up for it.
Long term probably make even does unaffordable to some/many, so stalkers will lose jobs.
Ground will either be stalked by contractors or oftrn by a very lucky local, great if ur that man.
But be even harder for others to take a day stalking.
U may think banning trophy hunting in uk will have a tiny impact and not effect u, and it might not if u have ur own ground.
But anyone taking paid stalking it will have an impact on u even if u only stalk does/hinds.

The simple fact is if u have enough disposable income to pay for trophies, theyre also spending big in local hotrls, pubs, restruants, craft gift shops etc
I imagine theyre will be many rural better or top end hotels could lose a lot of custom.
The knock on effects to akready fragile rural economies and jobs could be massive

 

[charlie222]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I believe that a lot of Joe public will not be bothered by 'one for the pot' shooting. What challenges people is the paying to shoot, be that game or trophies. I personally see no difference ethically, but I've spent many hours pondering over it.
I think there's a perception that only the upper classes shoot, that's an open door to left wing antis.

 

[countrryboy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I believe that a lot of Joe public will not be bothered by 'one for the pot' shooting. What challenges people is the paying to shoot, be that game or trophies. I personally see no difference ethically, but I've spent many hours pondering over it.
I think there's a perception that only the upper classes shoot, that's an open door to left wing antis.

Ur spot on.
Their is absolutely no difference ethically, ( as long as fair chase etc)

So for fellow stalkers to be against it is just crazy.
Doing the antis job for them.

I used to be anti trophy hunting and anti africain hunting because despite being involved with game shooting/keepering since i was a boy, i was ignorant of wot it really means. And the work that goes into consistantly growing trophies.
If anything in a sensible world stalkers should be encouraging and educating the general public about the massive benefits of trophy hunting.
U will get consistantly better trophies when the herd is well managed.
If trophy shooting is banned their is no real reason or incentive attempt to selectively manage ur deer herd.


I have no problem if someone objects to trophy hunting as they dont agree with killing animals and are vegetatrian.
Infact appreciate their morals

But i cant understand the mentality of a stalker objecting to trophy hunting, like a meat eater objecting to animals being killed.
By all means dont do it

If its keeping stalkers in jobs ( potentially subsidising any paid days i take) money throu local rural businesses and giving work to taxidermists.
Wots not to like.
A trophy ban would pretty much kill the taxidermy trade off.

 

[Heym SR20]

So I know of a group of Danish stalkers - five couples that used to come across to Scotland every year for about 2 weeks in October for end of stags. They would each shoot one or two stags over that time on two or three small but neighbouring estates. Between them they would spend a total of £30k to £40k on stalking fees, hotel or lodge and in the local area. This was £40k into the local economy keeping the local hotel open for another two weeks after the summer season etc.

Since all the big contractor culls on FLS forests in the local area for last three years the three estates have not been able to offer any stalking to guests as they simply do not have any deer, and certainly not enough for a party of 10 for two weeks.

Those Danes, like many others are now taking their hard earned cash elsewhere. So no £40k to local economy. No wages to pay for stalkers and ghillies, or hotel or lodge staff etc.

 

[kenbro]

Always a tinge of sadness for me when I see pictures of any magnificent beast that has been shot just because of its looks.
Not criticising anyone here.
Ken.