Trophy Hunting

If trophy hunting/import of trophies is banned, it does not mean hunting abroad is banned, but it does separate those hunting for experiences and those hunting for trophies, and that, can only be a good thing.

I think you’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Let’s face it, in many cases it is the depth of the hunter’s pockets, rather than any innate skill, that determines the size of the trophy. For all the worthy discussions, such as those here about nothing from the carcass being wasted and supporting the local communities, these can be delivered regardless of whether one is hunting for trophies or as a management cull.

Trophy hunting is undermined by the sight of hunters paying big dollars to shoot the big 5 (and other animals) and then plastering photos on social media of them grinning inanely whilst pointing the unfortunate animal's head at the camera. Trophy hunting is as distasteful and anachronistic to the average person as horns being hacked off a rhino for the purpose of being used as an aphrodisiac.

Looked at dispassionately, the Bill allows people to carry on hunting abroad but stops the import of dead animal parts. If that's something people are going to protest about, then be ready to provide a convincing answer to the question "what purpose does a trophy serve?"

A memory of a stalk is all well and good, but why can that not be fulfilled from a photo instead? I have a few heads hanging on the wall at home for this purpose - including some does - but increasingly I find the antlers serve a better purpose as raw material for other goods, rather than as a dust-gathering wall-hanger.
 
I think you’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Let’s face it, in many cases it is the depth of the hunter’s pockets, rather than any innate skill, that determines the size of the trophy. For all the worthy discussions, such as those here about nothing from the carcass being wasted and supporting the local communities, these can be delivered regardless of whether one is hunting for trophies or as a management cull.

Trophy hunting is undermined by the sight of hunters paying big dollars to shoot the big 5 (and other animals) and then plastering photos on social media of them grinning inanely whilst pointing the unfortunate animal's head at the camera. Trophy hunting is as distasteful and anachronistic to the average person as horns being hacked off a rhino for the purpose of being used as an aphrodisiac.

Looked at dispassionately, the Bill allows people to carry on hunting abroad but stops the import of dead animal parts. If that's something people are going to protest about, then be ready to provide a convincing answer to the question "what purpose does a trophy serve?"

A memory of a stalk is all well and good, but why can that not be fulfilled from a photo instead? I have a few heads hanging on the wall at home for this purpose - including some does - but increasingly I find the antlers serve a better purpose as raw material for other goods, rather than as a dust-gathering wall-hanger.



I believe it brings in money to these communities to protect and enhance what they have
It surely allows the "trophy" animal to have got to that status and have passed on its genes - without it - would more be killed ?
If you look on so many sites - you see pics of people grinning over trophy heads / foxes / woodcock / snipe / duck / pigeon etc

I am not a trophy hunter - i have no interest in deer heads / skulls - im not a facebooker and i seldom even take let alone post pictures - but i can see the benefit of it.
 
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I believe it brings in money to these communities to protect and enhance what they have
It surely allows the "trophy" animal to have got to that status and have passed on its genes - without it - would more be killed ?
If you look on so many sites - you see pics of people grinning over trophy heads / foxes / woodcock / snipe / duck / pigeon etc

I am not a trophy hunter - i have no interest in deer heads / skulls - im not a facebooker and i seldom even take let alone post pictures - but i can see the benefit of it.
There is no benefit of it, all it does, in lines particular peoples pockets who have the ground that is it end of subject, does not benefit anybody in the UK of any shape or form, if people shot more does , and didn’t worry about the trophy bucks or stags, then they would not be a dear problem in the UK
 
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There is no benefit of it, all it does, in lines particular peoples pockets who have the ground that is it end of subject, does not benefit anybody in the UK of any shape or form, if people shot more does , and didn’t worry about the trophy bucks or stags, then they would not be a dear problem in the UK

Maybe you need to get out more
I know of plenty of people in the UK that earn money from it and have had the pleasure in taking part in various cull hunts because of it
 
Maybe you need to get out more
I know of plenty of people in the UK that earn money from it and have had the pleasure in taking part in various cull hunts because of it
With all due respect, you need to take a rose tinted glasses off!

What is wrong fundamentally is you can earn more money from a trophy stag than you can shooting 10 red Hinds!

Even more with fallow bucks, CWD and muntjac.

Sir, you need to seriously sit back and look, because there are people out there with far more knowledge about trophy stalking than you. I will assure you, and I am one of them, there is a reason why I think the way I do now because I have experienced it firsthand, until you have done so I will get off your moral high horse before you get kicked off, more damage is done by the punter posing behind the red stag or fallow. Buck than a trailer load of red Hines or follow those going to the Game Dealer .
 
With all due respect, you need to take a rose tinted glasses off!

What is wrong fundamentally is you can earn more money from a trophy stag than you can shooting 10 red Hinds!

Even more with fallow bucks, CWD and muntjac.

Sir, you need to seriously sit back and look, because there are people out there with far more knowledge about trophy stalking than you. I will assure you, and I am one of them, there is a reason why I think the way I do now because I have experienced it firsthand, until you have done so I will get off your moral high horse before you get kicked off, more damage is done by the punter posing behind the red stag or fallow. Buck than a trailer load of red Hines or follow those going to the Game Dealer .

As i said yesterday - i feel for you
 
As i said yesterday - i feel for you
No I feel for you because you really do need to open your eyes and experience the real world and don’t preach what you think it’s going to happen or needs to happen!

Think practically, I think about preserving deerstalking in the UK because trophy stalking should have no part of it , if people actually shot more those and more Hinds there wouldn’t be a dare problem ****s stags don’t breed
 
I sent this to my MP - feel free to reuse it and send to yours.

Dear Mr Hinds,

I write to you as I understand that there is a bill which proposes to ban trophy hunting being read on Friday 17 March, and which I strongly and firmly believe should be rejected.

I fully appreciate and understand that trophy hunting (which is a misnomer in and of itself) is not a popular topic, nor indeed a vote winning one. I however strongly urge you to consider the science as opposed to the public optics, particularly as there are a great number of people against shooting and hunting but whom have never taken part in it, and know very little about it other than the editorialised version presented by the media.

Even the name “trophy hunting” is misleading. I am heavily and actively involved in deer management in the UK and I am yet to meet a person who does not understand the need for deer management when it is discussed, nor indeed welcome a piece of venison when offered. There seem to be very few people who object to an animal at the end of its life being humanely culled for the wider benefit of the population and its meat ending up on the table – if it is acceptable to kill an animal for food, welfare or conservation reasons, eats its meat and throw the inedible pieces in the bin, then it is sensationalism at its finest to say that actually making use of one of those inedible pieces in the form of hide or bone instead of binning them is somehow a “cruel thing” to do.

Furthermore, this private members bill is fundamentally flawed and unnecessary given that imports and exports are already regulated under existing CITES rules – rules which are designed to ensure that international trade in animals (and indeed plants) does not threaten their survival in the wild. Moreover, where these permits are given to import hunting trophies into the UK it is precisely because they have been certified as being harvested sustainably.

I would like to query if the MP presenting this bill has also provided a list of species and their country of residence where trophy hunting is having a negative impact?

The two biggest threats to wildlife anywhere in the world are loss of habitat and poaching – hunting tourism helps to mitigate both of these by attaching a monetary value to the animals in question, making them more valuable than the alternative use of the land such as farming. Hunting tourism also provides funds which go towards anti-poaching measures.

I would like to present the below benefits of sustainably managed trophy hunting:
  • The land allocated to hunting tourism helps to protect many different species that wouldn't otherwise be protected. If hunting tourism were to be banned, this land would likely be transformed to generate the most money (probably for agriculture or pastoralism), having negative impacts on wildlife and reducing available habitat.
  • Hunting tourism creates conservation incentives in places where ecotourism isn't viable because it's economically unfeasible or too remote.
  • Hunting benefits local people via employment, money, and meat, reduces adverse animal/people contact (eg by keeping lion populations at a sustainable level and managing out the dangerous animals), and reduces poaching by providing meat that would have otherwise been poached.
  • In most African countries conservation is underfunded, and many areas simply don't have the money to effectively manage wildlife without the significant revenue generated from hunting tourism.
  • People managing hunting build and maintain waterholes and try to maximise wildlife populations to make it sustainable, whereas in ecotourism there's less need for large populations as a few individuals of a species are enough to make people happy and maximise profits.
  • If the money goes to the right people, it provides incentives for local people to tolerate animals like lions which would otherwise be shot on sight.
  • Hunting tourism has a smaller footprint than ecotourism; fewer people provide a higher revenue, meaning less flights, and hunters require less infrastructure, meaning habitat degradation is minimal. Additionally, hunters don't mind hunting in less attractive areas meaning more areas can facilitate hunting.
  • Hunting tourism helps to provide an anti-poaching presence.

Instead of supporting this bill and giving it any more time I would encourage the government to continue to support the Illegal Wildlife Trade Challenge Fund which supports projects around the world that are tackling the illegal wildlife trade and the truly devastating consequences of poaching.

If you would like to discuss this further, or indeed if you would like to come out with me one day to see what hunting and shooting is really about, then I am more than happy to do so - please just let me know.
 
Waste your time if you wish, personally I’ve got more constructive things to do!

Like finishing my hind Cull
Maybe one of your clients will kill his first Red Hind. A photo of him/her with their prize.
Is this their trophy?
Someone shoots a 22inch common Impala in Africa. Is this a trophy. To a certain extent I guess so. But that's no difference to your shooting a reasonable 6 point Roe buck.
I'm afraid we are our own worse enemies at times. I guess you have never hunted Africa?
What is a trophy? As the UK is a signatory to CITIES it is already covered by international law. So if they ban all exports of Red Deer antlers etc from leaving the UK I guess you wouldn't give a sh.t when many estates income drop to nothing and more stalkers and estates suffer a huge monetary loss?
 
Maybe one of your clients will kill his first Red Hind. A photo of him/her with their prize.
Is this their trophy?
Someone shoots a 22inch common Impala in Africa. Is this a trophy. To a certain extent I guess so. But that's no difference to your shooting a reasonable 6 point Roe buck.
I'm afraid we are our own worse enemies at times. I guess you have never hunted Africa?
What is a trophy? As the UK is a signatory to CITIES it is already covered by international law. So if they ban all exports of Red Deer antlers etc from leaving the UK I guess you wouldn't give a sh.t when many estates income drop to nothing and more stalkers and estates suffer a huge monetary loss?
That’s the nature of the beast, Malcolm, I don’t take clients on red deer anymore too unpredictable. Can’t offer a client a fair crack of the whip for their money, but maybe that’s me just being too honest for my own good, I don’t take clients if it’s a waste of time, I don’t believe in wasting theirs or mine for that matter!
 
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I believe it brings in money to these communities to protect and enhance what they have
It surely allows the "trophy" animal to have got to that status and have passed on its genes - without it - would more be killed ?
If you look on so many sites - you see pics of people grinning over trophy heads / foxes / woodcock / snipe / duck / pigeon etc

I am not a trophy hunter - i have no interest in deer heads / skulls - im not a facebooker and i seldom even take let alone post pictures - but i can see the benefit of it.

As I read the Bill, hunters will still be able to go there and shoot what they want - whether a trophy or a cull beast.

Since it is a global market, anything we do in the UK is unlikely to have any impact generally on the prices being demanded for shooting the biggest/rarest/prettiest trophy. So in that sense the money will continue to flow. I suppose some UK hunters might no longer go abroad if their sole purpose for doing so was to bring back the trophies shot, or may switch to just going on management culls, but it is arguable as to whether that would necessarily be a bad thing.

That just leaves the importation of the trophy into the UK, which the proposed Bill aims to stop.

I've yet to hear a convincing reason as to why it is desirable/essential that trophies should still be imported. Maybe focus on that?
 
Yes maybe. But you take them for other species. CWD and Muntjac. Only the other day you had some ladies shooting and charged them.
 
There is a company called Kanati in the US which does perfect replicas of animals shot, all just from pictures taken.

So potentially the way this is going to go (assuming the bill gets passed, which with the way our illustrious leaders are these days is a possibility…) is go to Africa anyway, shoot what you like, take loads of pictures of what you shoot and get these guys to 3D print you a replica. Is it going to make any odds to me? Not personally - I’d still go, still shoot, still hunt, and take the pictures plus the 3D print. Have a look at what they produce - it’s incredible work.
 
Yes maybe. But you take them for other species. CWD and Muntjac. Only the other day you had some ladies shooting and charged them.
Nope incorrect their day was 100% FOC and I can prove it!

funny enough, I don’t see too many other outfit’s giving away £3500 worth of a talking to a group of ladies, which all they want is a fair crack of the whip!

They shot 8 CWD including three medal heads not that bothers me, because it doesn’t and 2 muntjac and a lovely time all round was had
 
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Nope incorrect their day was 100% FOC and I can prove it!

funny enough, I don’t see too many other outfit’s giving away £3500 worth of a talking to a group of ladies, which all they want is a fair crack of the whip!

They shot 8 CWD including three medal heads not that bothers me, because it doesn’t and 2 muntjac and a lovely time all round was had
Yes I was one of the first to take some of their members out also FOC.
Well done you. But you still charge to take clients out.
Either way from first knowing you to Now, your opposition to most things stalking/ trophy related is not what I expected. You may not care about hunting worldwide. But the vast majority of us do.
 
Yes I was one of the first to take some of their members out also FOC.
Well done you. But you still charge to take clients out.
Either way from first knowing you to Now, your opposition to most things stalking/ trophy related is not what I expected. You may not care about hunting worldwide. But the vast majority of us do.
My days of caring about hunting worldwide went out of the window 10 years ago!

Doesn’t interest me, affect me, no point in getting stressed about it!

Personally, I don’t make a penny out of the stalking, but yes, my landowner does charge for people to come and shoot what they wanna shoot and fill their freezer. There’s no trophies taken or charged those days are long gone. I am more now about providing stalking for those who are on a budget to come and have a lovely time
 
Well then why comment about it if you don't care.
Most on here do. What people fail to see is how it will have a certain impact on local people. Have you heard of the camp fire scheme in Africa? Or the scheme that saved a certain species of Markhor in Asia from extinction, thanks to very careful limited hunting. Now the locals protect it instead of poaching it.
Just two examples of how hunting can and does protect wildlife and wild areas.
So before anyone claims they don't give a toss about wildlife and wild places maybe learn a bit more about how any so called trophy ban will probably impact all of this.

In my past job I was involved in taking many DNA samples for Stellenbosh Uni in SA. You would be amazed at how much work is supported by the hunting industry to re wild and protect endangered species. Even bringing back the Quagga which i had some small part in.
 
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I sent this to my MP - feel free to reuse it and send to yours.

Dear Mr Hinds,

I write to you as I understand that there is a bill which proposes to ban trophy hunting being read on Friday 17 March, and which I strongly and firmly believe should be rejected...

Just serendipity at its very best.








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