Trophy Hunting

[HonestJohn]

Maybe one of your clients will kill his first Red Hind. A photo of him/her with their prize.
Is this their trophy?
Someone shoots a 22inch common Impala in Africa. Is this a trophy. To a certain extent I guess so. But that's no difference to your shooting a reasonable 6 point Roe buck.
I'm afraid we are our own worse enemies at times. I guess you have never hunted Africa?
What is a trophy? As the UK is a signatory to CITIES it is already covered by international law. So if they ban all exports of Red Deer antlers etc from leaving the UK I guess you wouldn't give a sh.t when many estates income drop to nothing and more stalkers and estates suffer a huge monetary loss?

they might as well ban exports of red deer antlers, as it stands the export licensing is so prohibitive the only way antlers are leaving the country are illegally by post or car.

I haven't spoken to a single estate or guide here in Scotland who has gone through the official export system for overseas clients. Usually they go home in the clients luggage, by car, or posted as 'personal belongings/interior decorative pieces'..all illegal of course, but that's the way it is.

 

[huntinlabs]

they might as well ban exports of red deer antlers, as it stands the export licensing is so prohibitive the only way antlers are leaving the country are illegally by post or car.

I haven't spoken to a single estate or guide here in Scotland who has gone through the official export system for overseas clients. Usually they go home in the clients luggage, by car, or posted as 'personal belongings/interior decorative pieces'..all illegal of course, but that's the way it is.

Last I checked there was nothing difficult about transporting red deer, even a red deer mount form the UK to the USA?

 

[HonestJohn]

Last I checked there was nothing difficult about transporting red deer, even a red deer mount form the UK to the USA?

yes, USA, but we're not exactly a very popular shooting destination for Americans, they particularly hate the idea of having someone carry their rifle 'ghillie' style. I'd be willing to suggest almost all business comes/came from the EU block, particularly scandinavia, germany, france, spain, italy and belgium.

 

[sikamalc]

yes, USA, but we're not exactly a very popular shooting destination for Americans, they particularly hate the idea of having someone carry their rifle 'ghillie' style. I'd be willing to suggest almost all business comes/came from the EU block, particularly scandinavia, germany, france, spain, italy and belgium.

In the past all my clients were from the USA. Last year I had American clients. Covid has been the issue.
My client base has been mostly USA but in the past 10 years I have had many from Hungary, Finland and Denmark, plus South Africa and Russia.
Things have changed since Covid, air lines are charging stupid money to carry guns, packing and shipping of antlers and skins is in some instances costs nearly another hunt.
I know my costs to run a week in Scotland now have increased dramatically. My fuel bill for last year over nearly a month for 3 vehicle was over 2k.

 

[Stalker62]

Things have changed since Covid, air lines are charging stupid money to carry guns, packing and shipping of antlers and skins is in some instances costs nearly another hunt.

Four of us in Africa last November - we all agreed none would bring anything home.
We took three rifles (only two of which made it) at great expense and buggeration with all the forms etc.

Long short.

I short my first (and last) Kudu. It was a beaut.

I weakened, and we explored the possibility of bringing the horns back to the UK.

Two of the party tried to get their Warthog tusks in my crate - turns out this is utterly impossible.

Absolutely extraordinary prices quoted.

Shot fee $2,300 (fine - knew that when I pulled the trigger).

Now the fun starts:-

Dip & Pack (local), ship from Mozambique to SA, taxidermy in SA, ship to UK - over $7,000.

This did not include Heathrow taxes to release the crate (when it eventually arrives) last time it took over two years to get here and cost £550.

So as a rough calculation - the fee to get a "Trophy" back from Africa was getting on for four times the 'shot' fee.


Needless to say, the damn things are staying in Africa.


Malcolm you are bang on the money - those fees are almost exactly, what we are going to be paying for a Cull Hunt next year in South Africa.


Yeah. Trophies no longer for the 'working man'...

 

[Sol]

The unfortunate thing Is if the importation of skins, horns, and antlers is stopped this actually causes quite a bit of issue when It comes to Taxidermy.
A lot more zoo's and wildlife parks are becoming a lot less accustomed to giving up carcasses once animals pass so Its becoming harder and harder to legally acquire skins for museum specimens, a wolf "skull" with cites documentation is £1000 for a small one, now imagine a pelt that can be taxidermized.
.
One of the larger exporters for animal bones, hides, and horns are collectors or taxidermists, hunted trophies are a very small part of the import. Taxidermy however has thousands of individuals that do this as a full time job for cilents around the world.
Almost all your lions, polar bears, tigers etc are also imported from Europe from zoos to be taxidermized for educational specimens across the globe.

Also in reality all I see the trophy ban is now were going to have non-natives imported and have ranches like texas, no? Rich people will still find an easy way around the ban....

 

[sikamalc]

None of it was ever cheap.
99% of my hunting in Africa was from 1990 to 2002. I managed to get all of my animals back. I've hunted Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zululand, Transval and the Cape. Met some wonderful local people, hunted with Zulus to Sand People.
If this hunting rubbish is applied it will eventually impact on these people. Their lives, their families and the wildlife that lives on their lands.
All these utter arse holes who think that it dosnt matter and that it is just killing, know nothing. The media pounce on anything to do with hunting. Even shooting a deer in the UK summons the usual complete crap response from certain people. Usually well paid actors or TV personalities.
So those who stalk and shoot deer over here and come out with remarks regarding I don't give a dam what goes on in the hunting/ stalking world, loose my respect straight away.
Hunting is a world wide family to me.

 

[dobber]

I am hoping that one day I will return home for a visit, and upon that visit I want to hunt, I want to hunt with someone like minded, these forums sure do open peoples eyes to what the thoughts are of people. I know when I don't agree with something online, I have a choice to ignore or participate. I do know the ones I ignore are often based on what I don't know, no one really wants the opinion of the ill informed. And often enough those who are ill informed are sometimes no better than the anti hunting crowd.
I would like to point out that while there is a little of hunting methods/practices I do not agree with, I will never speak out against what is legal on an open forum, perhaps over a pint I may discuss but to get educated vs "I'm right your wrong"

I found this site by a negative news article, I showed up and put my limited posts in to help support the global hunting community

 

[moray loon]

I volunteer at a local school. Many of the teachers were anti guns and hunting but, by speaking to them, distributing some venison and taking them to clay pigeon shooting, they are now quite “ pro “ !! I’ve explained to them about ethical trophy hunting and its beneficial effects, and they’ve taken that on board because, like most people, they are realistic. As a community, we can make a difference if we are vocal in a constructive way.

 

[HonestJohn]

Four of us in Africa last November - we all agreed none would bring anything home.
We took three rifles (only two of which made it) at great expense and buggeration with all the forms etc.

Long short.

I short my first (and last) Kudu. It was a beaut.

I weakened, and we explored the possibility of bringing the horns back to the UK.

Two of the party tried to get their Warthog tusks in my crate - turns out this is utterly impossible.

Absolutely extraordinary prices quoted.

Shot fee $2,300 (fine - knew that when I pulled the trigger).

Now the fun starts:-

Dip & Pack (local), ship from Mozambique to SA, taxidermy in SA, ship to UK - over $7,000.

This did not include Heathrow taxes to release the crate (when it eventually arrives) last time it took over two years to get here and cost £550.

So as a rough calculation - the fee to get a "Trophy" back from Africa was getting on for four times the 'shot' fee.


Needless to say, the damn things are staying in Africa.


Malcolm you are bang on the money - those fees are almost exactly, what we are going to be paying for a Cull Hunt next year in South Africa.


Yeah. Trophies no longer for the 'working man'...

If you can justify to pay those trophy fees (not meant to poster personally), then you better be donating a LOT to charity on the side

 

[Mike L]

If you can justify to pay those trophy fees (not meant to poster personally), then you better be donating a LOT to charity on the side

Why?

 

[HonestJohn]

Why?

$7K USD plus heathrow fee's, etc. to hang something on the wall..do I need to elaborate.. for example,,,give that money to the african people where you shot the animal..

just saying...

 

[moray loon]

$7K USD plus heathrow fee's, etc. to hang something on the wall..do I need to elaborate.. for example,,,give that money to the african people where you shot the animal..

just saying...

He’s created employment by visiting the country where he hunted, which is surely better than a one off “ handout “ that wouldn’t go far.

 

[moray loon]

I should have said “ helped sustain “ rather than “ created “ .

 

[sikamalc]

$7K USD plus heathrow fee's, etc. to hang something on the wall..do I need to elaborate.. for example,,,give that money to the african people where you shot the animal..

just saying...

A great part of it is.
This again shows how little people know.
Many African countries run the camp fire scheme, or similar.
There are not just safari parks in Africa. Vast areas are owned by local people. This is regulated by the game depts and a sustainable cull undertaken every year. This is auctioned off in large areas to a safari company. The camps are often seasonal and taken down at the end of the hunting season.
The share of the ground lease is shared with the locals, government and safari company. Plus the locals get to be employed in the camps as cooks, trackers, skinners and also can help.in construction.
They get a share of the meat. There share of the lease often builds wells, schools and better medication etc.
It also gives value to their wildlife on their land. So why poach it anymore. Instead they protect it.
Giving money direct would not give any wildlife protection. And may well be squandered if given direct to local government. If local people are paid they know what they need to improve their lives. Not another **** in central government.

So now tell me WHY the idiots in this country really know what they are doing. 99.9% have never been there, never will, and yet are over night experts on trophy hunting.
Boils my p.ss.

 

[Stalker62]

$7K USD plus heathrow fee's, etc. to hang something on the wall..do I need to elaborate.. for example,,,give that money to the african people where you shot the animal..

just saying...

OK.

Just back from spinning for the Pheasants, Partridges and all the wild birds that will benefit.

An interesting take on the 'benefits' of hunting to the "african (sic) people".

I am not at all sure you understand how hunting benefits the local communities, the host country, the ecosystem, the anti-poaching operations, the employment of Trackers, Spotters, Drivers, Skinners, Camp staff, the PHs (obviously), the airlines...



Just saying...

 

[dobber]

just saying...

How much have you donated to any of these places?

 

[dobber]

Couple of decent videos out there

 

[stevec]

I suspect that the negative impact of this won't come from this bill in particular but if other countries, such as the USA follow. The simple fact is that a large proportion of the trophy fee paid to the safari operator goes directly to the local community.

I had very mixed views on trophy hunting and my only hunting experience in Africa was management hunting, saying that if the fees had been more reasonable, then I would really have liked to have brought the horns back from my first Kudu. Nothing special to anyone else, just to me, like my first stag antlers were and some unusual antlers I have kept, all have memories to me.

This bill is an attack on sustainable hunting in Africa. Last year I saw an amazing conservation project, a whole landscape protected, a clinic and school funded along with 100+ jobs created by trophy hunting. It was effectively management culls run by a totally committed family. The local community would dearly have loved to poach what they could (who could blame them) and get rid of crop raiding elephants etc, as our ancestors would have done in medieval times here. Wildlife has to pay, otherwise the wild bush will disappear.

My management hunt would have had very little benefit, as would a large number of photographic safaris, I doubt my trip even covered the costs to the operator, but the fees from trophy hunts would make a real difference, particularly in an area six hours' drive down very basic roads. A trip that needs a real motivation to make.


I am not saying that everywhere is like the place I visited but you only have to look at what is being achieved by organisations like the Robin Hurt foundation to see the massive benefit of trophy hunting, which brings in a huge income and benefits to local communities and wildlife.

The other benefit is that funds administered through locally based organisations are much more likely to reach their intended destination than a charity donation or an aid payment.

Attacking the responsible operators who are making very little personal gain is totally counterproductive.

Thank you for this post. I will write to my MP this evening.

 

[Stalker62]

I would really have liked to have brought the horns back from my first Kudu.

Me too!



Alas, twas not to be.

So...I have picked my favourite six photos from the trip, and I am having them put into one long frame, and that will go up in my bedroom.

One of those photos will be 'my' Kudu, but it will include my Hunting pal and the PH on the day - they were part of the story and thus very much a part of the memory that day.

God, I love Africa - just wish I could afford it.